LO Battle Ahead?

[SAJ-99]

They do, but my mission is to point out how everyone benefits.

Residents, non-residents, non-hunting residents and most importantly the resource all benefit.

Again I am left to wonder, what’s the downside (practically speaking)?

The resource is limited. Selling LO tags incents them to harbor elk. Maybe that helps the resource in some respects, but eventually it limits tags that can go to general hunters. Limiting tags, particularly when demand far exceeds supply, results in less people caring about the resource, ultimately hurting the resource. It is a fine line to have to walk. Look at the NM threads.

 

[Bighorner]

Perhaps they do, perhaps I could never dream of affording such a thing- that’s not relevant to the discussion we are having. My hope is to point out how everyone benefits from these programs if structured appropriately (like NM and Colorado LO programs are).

Residents, non-residents, non-hunting residents and most importantly the resource all benefit. Again I am left to wonder, what’s the downside (practically speaking)?

I think the downside has been pointed out a couple of times. The most obvious to me is the reduced draw oppertunity. I think it is only reasonable to assume transferable LO would increase LO participation which directly decreases draw opportunities to the general public.

The reason above is almost certain. Animal tolerance and increases access is speculative at best. If the state wants to generate more dollars, raise tag rates across the board.

 

[Treeshark]

Selling LO tags incents them to harbor elk.

That’s a fair point, but so do nontransferable landowner tags- which Wyoming currently has.

I do not expect a large increase due to them becoming transferable (premium tags are almost fully subscribed already), but I would absolutely anticipate improved access.

 

[Treeshark]

I think the downside has been pointed out a couple of times. The most obvious to me is the reduced draw oppertunity. I think it is only reasonable to assume transferable LO would increase LO participation which directly decreases draw opportunities to the general public.

That is a fair point- see above.

As @rjthehunter pointed out before, making these tags zero out a hunters points upon purchase would actually really help the draw opportunity situation.

 

[seeth07]

For mature bulls it’s pretty standard.

No its not, not even close.

Sure a Gila tag may go for that but that is only a tiny fraction of the total landowner tags in the EPLUS program. The vast majority of the tags are in northern NM with elk herds that have significantly benefited and grown in size (some have doubled or more in the last decade) and these mature bull tags go for 3-8k.

If you follow the listings for people selling NM landowner tags, they all start out very inflated in price. The vouchers will be released here shortly and the market will be flooded with hundreds of extremely overpriced tags. Last year in the first two weeks the hunt I was interested in buying ranged from 10k-18k. Those same listings started to significantly drop after about a month and by mid August most were in the 6-9k range. I ended up not purchasing one but after I filled my early archery tag in the unit, I looked again to see about getting one for my wife and we called a guy that had one posted for $4500 (12 days into the early season so 3 days left to buy and set it for the second season) and offered him $3500 and was countered at $3800. We thought about it that evening and decided to head home instead.

This was an extremely fantastic hunt so don't tell me its 12k for a LO tag as being standard.

 

[cgasner1]

Source? Have you ever really dug into NM or CO and what happens to those tags? You might be shocked at what you find.... @hank4elk where do your elk tags go?

New Mexicos a little. I like that if they open up the ranch their tag is good for the entire unit and if they don’t it’s only good for the ranch. Selling these tags won’t make the land owners any more tolerable of animals. A lot of places in Wyoming they are already sick of the animals. They are more sick of the people so the animals get to live on the ranch because they don’t wanna deal with people. Which is why I think if this was a thing they would be bulk sold to the outfitters and that’s how a majority of these tags would be used

 

[Bighorner]

That is a fair point- see above.

As @rjthehunter pointed out before, making these tags zero out a hunters points upon purchase would actually really help the draw opportunity situation.

The increase would certainly be less than zero. There is zero possibility of LO tags going down under this argument. The Task Force has previously recognized that unlimited LO tags coming of the top of R and NR allocations is a problem that needs address. This hurts rather than helps that situation.

There is not currently a cap on LO meaning LO tags can in theory account for 100% of the R and NR tags.

Residents don't have points for DEA. Meaning a LO can pick up top tier tags every year regardless of draw odds and never actually help the draw odds or NR point creep.

If it does zero out a NR points to buy the tag and he or she needs zero points to buy the next one I don't see how that helps anything other than to perpetuate the cycle.

 

[seeth07]

Some quick math:
Wyoming 2025 elk application cost me $2014.13
$1950 that was held for about 4 months. My high interest savings account pays roughly 1.5% monthly = $1950 * 1.5/12 compounded = $9.77 lost interest.
2025 Elk PP cost = $53.30
Total 2025 out of pocket cost for a roughly 1/20 chance at an elk tag = $127.20.

Lets say this same hunt takes 12 points to draw by the time you do this for 12 years to earn 12 years of points which would mean applying for 13 years.
12 years of applying and failing = $127.20 * 12 = $1526.40.
13th year, $2014.13 app cost and securing the tag.
Total elk tag cost assuming by a miracle none of these prices increase over 13 years = $1526.40 + $2014.13 = $3540.53

That sure is an expensive elk tag for a slightly above average unit. The unit I referenced above in NM has had about a 1/20 chance to draw the tag the last few years. $4k is about the going rate - not the inflated huge money maker that everyone is making these tags out to be.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Some quick math:
Wyoming 2025 elk application cost me $2014.13
$1950 that was held for about 4 months. My high interest savings account pays roughly 1.5% monthly = $1950 * 1.5/12 compounded = $9.77 lost interest.
2025 Elk PP cost = $53.30
Total 2025 out of pocket cost for a roughly 1/20 chance at an elk tag = $127.20.

Lets say this same hunt takes 12 points to draw by the time you do this for 12 years to earn 12 years of points which would mean applying for 13 years.
12 years of applying and failing = $127.20 * 12 = $1526.40.
13th year, $2014.13 app cost and securing the tag.
Total elk tag cost assuming by a miracle none of these prices increase over 13 years = $1526.40 + $2014.13 = $3540.53

That sure is an expensive elk tag for a slightly above average unit. The unit I referenced above in NM has had about a 1/20 chance to draw the tag the last few years. $4k is about the going rate - not the inflated huge money maker that everyone is making these tags out to be.

Interesting. So why apply and not just buy them?

 

[seeth07]

Interesting. So why apply and not just buy them?

My conversation with @ccc23454 just last week wondering why I'm even applying anymore...

 

[TOGIE]

Interesting. So why apply and not just buy them?

Because wyoming won't let him

But in all seriousness, it's a fair point he makes. I nonetheless still don't like the transferability cat being let out of the bag.

However, one assumption i'm not sure we can be certain of is the economics of wyoming tags versus new mexico tags. As incredible as some of New Mexico's elk hunting is, i think we can all agree the premier state is wyoming. And above average in wyoming and above average in new mexico or elsewhere is likely to demand differing rates. And do we even know how many transferrable tags will exist? Supply is a big factor in pricing, if not obviously.

 

[seeth07]

As incredible as some of New Mexico's elk hunting is, i think we can all agree the premier state is wyoming. And above average in wyoming and above average in new mexico or elsewhere is likely to demand differing rates. And do we even know how many transferrable tags will exist? Supply is a big factor in pricing, if not obviously.

I don't have a massive personal sample size but have been in the mountains 3 times in NM and in Wyoming 4. The hunting pressure was extremely less in NM and there was a lot more bugling bulls and less pressured elk in NM. So I don't necessarily think the quality is vastly different but there certainly is a quantity difference which you follow up with noting the supply difference. There are only pockets in NM with elk where a large portion of Wyoming holds elk.

 

[TOGIE]

I don't have a massive personal sample size but have been in the mountains 3 times in NM and in Wyoming 4. The hunting pressure was extremely less in NM and there was a lot more bugling bulls and less pressured elk in NM. So I don't necessarily think the quality is vastly different but there certainly is a quantity difference which you follow up with noting the supply difference. There are only pockets in NM with elk where a large portion of Wyoming holds elk.

all i know is every tom, dick, harry, and jenny who lives in wyoming and hunts occasionally has at least one 300+ inch bull somewhere in their house.

 

[Lostinthewoods]

Hankelk is a rare exception which im proud of the way he does it. Most landowners are greedy for the money those tags can bring.

I think Outfitters and Tag Services optimize tag prices for the most money, not the land owner.
Most of the land owners I've seen get paid 1/3 to 1/4 of the price that the Outfitters then charge.
They seem to be pleased with the residual cash or have no idea what the max price is that they could get.


I know this isnt all, but a lot of the tags I see are your mom & pops, dont know anything better, and dont mind some cash flashed by Outfitters who then go crazy with it.

Again I am not saying you're wrong because you're around different parts of the state and probably have different experiences from me.

To your point though, the Hanks are a rare breed. I'm getting another unit 40 antelope tag this year for a 50K acre ranch that never gets hunted. This will be my third one. I am very lucky and this person giving it to me is the salt of the earth.

 

[seeth07]

all i know is every tom, dick, harry, and jenny who lives in wyoming and hunts occasionally has at least one 300+ inch bull somewhere in their house.

This helps back up your claim:

 

[Lostinthewoods]

No its not, not even close.

Sure a Gila tag may go for that but that is only a tiny fraction of the total landowner tags in the EPLUS program. The vast majority of the tags are in northern NM with elk herds that have significantly benefited and grown in size (some have doubled or more in the last decade) and these mature bull tags go for 3-8k.


This was an extremely fantastic hunt so don't tell me its 12k for a LO tag as being standard.

Agreed. I could go find unit 51/52 tags for 1/4 of that price.

 

[Forkyfinder]

‘Nonresident Native’ Tags Could Bring Former Wyomingites Back Home To Hunt

People born and raised in Wyoming who move to other states must pay expensive nonresident tag fees to come back to hunt. Legislators are considering…

cowboystatedaily.com

In way better news

 

[seeth07]

‘Nonresident Native’ Tags Could Bring Former Wyomingites Back Home To Hunt

People born and raised in Wyoming who move to other states must pay expensive nonresident tag fees to come back to hunt. Legislators are considering…

cowboystatedaily.com

In way better news

Well Buzz does this going home to Montana so he must have been feeling guilty and wanted to make sure Wyoming had the same policy?

 

[Bighorner]

Some quick math:
Wyoming 2025 elk application cost me $2014.13
$1950 that was held for about 4 months. My high interest savings account pays roughly 1.5% monthly = $1950 * 1.5/12 compounded = $9.77 lost interest.
2025 Elk PP cost = $53.30
Total 2025 out of pocket cost for a roughly 1/20 chance at an elk tag = $127.20.

Lets say this same hunt takes 12 points to draw by the time you do this for 12 years to earn 12 years of points which would mean applying for 13 years.
12 years of applying and failing = $127.20 * 12 = $1526.40.
13th year, $2014.13 app cost and securing the tag.
Total elk tag cost assuming by a miracle none of these prices increase over 13 years = $1526.40 + $2014.13 = $3540.53

That sure is an expensive elk tag for a slightly above average unit. The unit I referenced above in NM has had about a 1/20 chance to draw the tag the last few years. $4k is about the going rate - not the inflated huge money maker that everyone is making these tags out to be.

I think that 100% makes sense. In your shoes I would certainly take advantage of it if I we're you. You put forth a great example how it benefits you personally.

However where I am standing. I don't really want my neighbor to sell you my tag.

You get a tag, my neighbor gets his 4K and I get to try again next year. No thanks. It may work great in NM, but I want nothing to do with it in WY.

 

[seeth07]

You get a tag, my neighbor gets his 4K and I get to try again next year.

You missed the part where because of the program and habitat requirements and the incentive for having elk on the neighbors property that the herd is now twice the size so there are twice as many tags to go around