let the trapping begin!

[onpoint]

You're dead on Draathar. ""if they would get off their asses...." That is THE fact. You know what boys, it's the perfect storm facing us.....the polarized political climate (including amongst us "sportsmen"), the economy, the sad state of our resource management agencies, the myriad issues - like this wolf stuff -, and especially the abundance of apathy among us. This next Montana legislative session may be the worst yet for us. The Montana folks on this site that DO show up for these issues, eat your Wheaties, I think you're gonna need em. Some major progress has been made. Hopefully more will get off the sidelines and step up.
As far as this wolf trapping deal, I'm not a trapper, but if I was, I'd be pretty damned nervous about the floodlight that gonna start to shine on trapping like it never has before........
Hope everyone has a fun and safe summer. I'm heading back to 10000 ft. soon, it's a good place to escape the hard realities (for a bit) facing those of us who take this shit real personal like.......

 

[muleguy]

look at fine print

There is still the possibility that there will be no trapping-If you pay close attention to what Mr. Moody slipped in at last moment before the vote to approve trapping-What was also passed is a review in December by commission on numbers taken by hunting up to that point -so trapping is dependant on that number and what they decide at that time. So...

 

[shoots-straight]

drahthaar, what you say could most certainly be true, but adding snares now would add to the combative nature coming from the anit's. I see no gain in pursuing snares at this time. It would only give your prediction more power.

Onpoint is right in his assertion that what's coming is going to be a tsunami, compared to the little tidal wave we fought off last session. The left isn't going to mount much of a battle in this legislative session. It's the far right we have to worry about. SFW, MSSA, and BGF are our biggest threats. They are hoping for some sort of ban on trapping. That would benefit them them the most.

There's groups of sportsman as we speak preparing, for war,. Every day MSA (Montana Sportsmen's' Alliance) personal and other groups,are in constant communication. There will be many bills that we won't know about until it's in writing.

The apathy that's been pointed out is real. Our lives are so hard right now that many of us won't get involved because it's just down the real life list of things to do.

I saw sportsman from region 1 testify for trapping, but it just seems the area has poor representation in other organizations statewide. I know MSA could use a good man up there but no one has stepped up at this time.

drahthaar, I know you make many calls and show up at F&W meetings but we need more. Your kids are only going to get a small taste of what you have had if we don't win this battle. Every little thing that slips through is just the pieces of the puzzle. They gained a few of those pieces last session.

Everyone that uses our outdoors for recreation, should be ready to join one of the reputable sportsmans orgs. that are working the state. There's no shortage of groups to out there. If you don't belong to one now, then find one, join, and be ready to roll up your sleeves.

 

[drahthaar]

Ben, why do you think we lose all management and get wolves relisted by going all out on private land? I don't think anyone would argue that wolves do the most damage in winter, on winter range, much of which is private lands. I think the Canadians have it right, they keep wolves off wintering game's back's about as much as one can. It's just good management. Are you saying we limp through wolf management for 2 more years with just rifles(if footloose wins)? I can live with that, but I don't think its necessary. Or are you saying what I proposed is too drastic and we will get management "pulled" by the powers that be?

I know FWP wants foothold traps so if someone wants to release one, they can. For the sake of discussion, I think snare's cause less trepidation for people because they just kill. I think most anti-trappers and hunters that don't like trapping don't like an animals being caught in a trap. That is the "sight" that got the dude in ID in such hot water. People don't want to see that. People will put up with, or ignore, whatever, pictures of dead animals. We all post them, dozens of hunting forums are filled with them. The pic that "blew things" up, was the one with the wolf in the trap. That is the sight that they focused in on. It's a huge difference. That is why I think snares are better. Now you start talking about non-target catches, then you have other issues.

It is my understanding that Lynx are part of this non-target issue. I just don't think those ranges(wintering deer and elk/wolves) overlap enough to worry about personally. I am not a trapper, so I don't know what can be done to mitigate this issue.

 

[drahthaar]

Shoots, could you expand on what you mean with the R1 thing? Interesting.

 

[Big Fin]

Because of all of these issues, I suspect I will do most of my trapping on private land. Just a safer option.

I hope the trapper ed class is rather arduous. It cannot be some simple internet based thing like the bear identification test. It needs to place serious levels of education, awareness, and accountability, on anyone who goes out and sets a trap.

The posts here are correct about trapping now being in a spot light. The first idiot who does something stupid is going to load the cannon for the next volley against all trapping in Montana.

Trappers in Montana have not done a very good job of educating the hunting public about the value of trapping. If so, there would not be very many, if any, hunters who would disapprove of trapping. As it is, many hunters think of trapping as a bad deal. If trappers do a better job of showing hunters how trapping occurs when done properly, and work to show the benefits of trapping, there could be rock solid support in the hunting community.

Reality is, trapping is under the hottest microscope ever, at least in Montana. Fair or not, that is the reality. And given that reality, trappers need to understand that a much higher threshold of accountability and expectation is being placed upon them.

As much as I thought about doing a trapping episode, hoping to show people the value of trapping and how it works when done properly, I am not sure it can be done in a way that would not be used as ammo against us, no matter how that episode was put together. Probably going to punt on that idea for a while.

Hopefully nothing stupid happens with regards to a wolf and a trapper, allowing the temperature to settle on this issue.

If anyone is worried about footage of a dead wolf, or a wolf getting shot, then I am in hot water, come August 16th and 23rd. That is when our wolf hunt airs as two half-hour episodes. It is a "no apologies" edition. As one Hunt Talker who reviewed the first draft warned me, "I hope you aren't worried about a lot of blow back."

I speak very boldly in my proclamation of the necessity and value of hunting wolves. I am sure some will hammer me, but I suspect those are the same people who would hammer me for all the helpless dead animals (insects) stuck to my truck bumper.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Ben, why do you think we lose all management and get wolves relisted by going all out on private land? I don't think anyone would argue that wolves do the most damage in winter, on winter range, much of which is private lands. I think the Canadians have it right, they keep wolves off wintering game's back's about as much as one can. It's just good management. Are you saying we limp through wolf management for 2 more years with just rifles(if footloose wins)? I can live with that, but I don't think its necessary. Or are you saying what I proposed is too drastic and we will get management "pulled" by the powers that be?

I know FWP wants foothold traps so if someone wants to release one, they can. For the sake of discussion, I think snare's cause less trepidation for people because they just kill. I think most anti-trappers and hunters that don't like trapping don't like an animals being caught in a trap. That is the "sight" that got the dude in ID in such hot water. People don't want to see that. People will put up with, or ignore, whatever, pictures of dead animals. We all post them, dozens of hunting forums are filled with them. The pic that "blew things" up, was the one with the wolf in the trap. That is the sight that they focused in on. It's a huge difference. That is why I think snares are better. Now you start talking about non-target catches, then you have other issues.

It is my understanding that Lynx are part of this non-target issue. I just don't think those ranges(wintering deer and elk/wolves) overlap enough to worry about personally. I am not a trapper, so I don't know what can be done to mitigate this issue.

it would be a deviation on the wolf management plan, which delisting is contingent upon. Plus, while A lot of folks think that the issue is out of the courts, we miss the point where the genetic connectivity issue was never ruled on by Molloy. That means we need to manage wolves a lot differently than Canada, Idaho or other states. I don't think that trapping is a biological issue in R1 and R2, but it could be if it's improperly set up. That's why Moody got the review in.

To date I have not seen any data that supports elimination of predators as a scientifically valid method of wildlife and wildlife habitat management. In fact, you can look at places like the rocky mountain front and see high concentrations of grizz, black bears, lions and wolves, and an over abundance of elk. The biggest difference is that all parts of the elk habitat are conserved to some degree. Summer and calving grounds are in the sun river game preserve and their winter grounds are on FWP wma's or on protected private ground (conservation easements, etc). Add all of that together will careful management of the human resource, and you get elk. At best, we're still learning how to effectively manage wolves.

I think we have a tendency to focus on killing wolves, rather than protecting habitat. If you want to grow more elk, then focus on the habitat and repeal HB 42 which says we still need to kill 22,000 more elk. A good number of those elk are in areas with wolves.

To be perfectly clear, I sport the trapping of wolves as a management tool. I just don't want to hand HSUS he dream fight they've been waiting for, and I want people to quit using the wolf for political and monetary gain.

 

[drahthaar]

I see what you are saying, thanks for the explanation. I am just bouncing some balls around the room, so to speak.

Where I still disagree, not with what the wmp says, you have a much better grasp on that than me, but your example of using the front over there doesn't fly with what we have here in R1. Footloose passing their bill will have the most effect here in R1, more than anywhere in the state. We are public land rich. Private land poor. We resemble southern British Columbia ecologically much more than the Rocky Mtn Front.

No, I don't have "data", to back up what I say, other than what I have posted before about the east Kootenai elk herd. And nobody, NOBODY, has a higher concentration of grizzlies, black bears, lions, and wolves than R1. And I know how serious they are about keeping predators in check in southern BC, it must be part of the equation here in R1, why? Because it works for them. There isn't a bunch of maybe's or "we are still learning", it is being done. Yes, they quit killing cows, yes, they manage their land, yes they have 6 point bull regs.

We got rid of the youth season on cows, that was huge. But it isn't enough. We have the habitat, it isn't going anywhere, its all public land(barring some political catastrophe). Weather always has been, always will be the limiting factor on ungulates here in R1, all these preds compound that, that is why they need to be managed a little more harshly here IMO. I have said it before, we don't need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to wolves, look at whom has been managing them for years and see what worked and what didn't, ie, Canadians.

Like I said, we are public land rich, look at a FS map of the Flathead and Kootenai NF. If footloose wins, the amount of land left to trap on shrinks a lot relatively to other regions, and comparatively to what R1 is now. Let alone trying to get permission. Aside from HD 110, they already dropped the quota, it isn't like a huge stretch to hunt them year round on private land if need be.

I don't want to sound like the wolf whiners either, I get chastized by more than a few people for not having that passionate hatred of wolves, "like I am supposed to as a hunter". But I just want FWP to be proactive, rather than reactive.

And ditto on HB 42, I am sounding like a broken record in conversations with many guys.

And for what its worth, our FWP managers are very concerned about SFW/BGF, I try to spread the word best I can about them.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I'm not sure you have the habitat. You do have a lot of ground, but that doesn't mean that it's good for the groceries necessary for elk.

We're seeing poor conditions on public lands when it comes to nutritional content of grasses. Some think that it's due to climate change,voters are less sure. There should be some interesting studies coming out of WY in the next few months. Everybody wants to claim that wolves are pushing elk down low on to printe land, but the science is starting to show that it's the forage.

The other thing Canada has done that the US hasn't is cut some frigging trees. Fire would be a huge help in reducing conifers and opening up some good habitat for the future.

 

[drahthaar]

I'm not sure you have the habitat. You do have a lot of ground, but that doesn't mean that it's good for the groceries necessary for elk.


The other thing Canada has done that the US hasn't is cut some frigging trees. Fire would be a huge help in reducing conifers and opening up some good habitat for the future.

Yes, that is why I said, they manage their land. Our management has become no management. FS is bogged down by lawsuits anytime they try to do some management.

But don't worry, fires are comin.

 

[Ben Lamb]

There's one bright spot to the beetle epidemic: It's going to open up some of that habitat again.

Not sure what to do about the early green up and subsequent loss of nutritional value of native plants though.

 

[Z Barebow]

Whos gonna step up and release this one?

Reading this thread and this came up. My cousin caught this lion in ND several years back (Before the state had a season). (Bobcat set). I have other pics of the kittie (somewhere).

He called the G&F. They tranquilized it and fitted it with a antelope collar. (They eventually drugged it again and fitted it with a collar designed for a lion. This cat is still roaming the ND Badlands as far as we know. As I understand, he spends plenty of time watching mountain bikers on the Maah Dah Hey trail!

Unfortunately, he suffered repurcussions of this incident. A couple of the local ranchers no longer allow him to trap their land as they said this cat should have never seen the light of day. (SSS) and they hold it against him.

Sorry to hijack, it just brought back memories!