Last minute decision HELP.

[Thumper]

Maybe this should go in the gun section, but not much on muzzle loaders up there. I traded out some air line tickets to hunt an a private lease with some monster whitetails up in Indiana. 3 Tickets for a 7 days hunt with taxidermy and meat processing included. (If I kill a deer)

Problem I have a POS CVA .50 cal stainless that I have shot only a few times. Apparently it shoots well, but I have never been a smoke pole fan and would need to clean the thing get new gear and optics and HOPE it worked. Since this is a muzzle loader only hunt, figured I have better go big of stay home. I could try to get the CVA 50 in shape, for this one hunt. But who knows.
Want something accurate, easy to load and clean. Any suggestions and what price range are we talking for a complete set up.
Your comments greatly appreaciated.
Mark

 

[Bambistew]

I you didn't clean your CVA from the last time you shot it... you might as well throw it away. You MUST clean them after you shoot them within abotu 12 hours or the barrel will get pitted beyond repair. You must take care of them no mater how much you spend. SS won't cure anything, they still rust, and will get damaged by powder corrosion.

I have a couple Knight Disc rifles (Elite and Extreme), one in 50 one in 45. Love them both. There are lots of nice Muzz rifles out there these days. Personally I would look at Knight and TC and forget the rest. TC has the corner on the market at the present time, but I dont' really care for any of thier rifles. They're ugly IMO. The barrels on both Knight and TC are made by the same company, the trigers are nicer on the Knights IMO, and they'll both shoot as well as you can for the range thier intended for. I'm sure there are some pluses to the TCs as well.

The whole "ease" of cleaning thing always cracks me up that TC spouts. It doesn't take any longer to clean a Omega than it does any other inline, if you clean them up completly. Big deal either way, takes 10 min and your done. Ooh I can save 20 seconds by only having to turn my breech plug half a turn instead of 20 turns. BFD.

My first muzz was a CVA Firebolt I think it is? Killed a few deer with it, worked just fine. Other than the blueing being complet shit, the trigger junk, crappy stock/recoil pad, and plastic sights... it functioned

The problem with the cheaper rifles is the barrels are crappy, meaning they're usually rough (i.e. hard to keep clean), and not tested to the same pressures as the more expensive rifles. The triggers, sights, and stocks are typically pretty cheap. You're better off spending $350+ the first time around and get a quality rifle to start with.

There are some deals on used muzzies to be had, but dont' buy unless you can inspect them. Its pretty easy to see the pitting in a barrel.

Good luck with what ever you do. Its an adicting sport.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

I second the vote on the Knight, but only because it is the only one I have had and it has worked fine. I shot a 6x6 elk at 100 yards and it took 2 steps. I have the old style disc version, (bolt action) but friends have gone the Optima or Omega route and been happy. I got great groups with 110-130 gr of pyrodex pellets, but would try a different powder now, like 777.

I used hot water and Simple Green to clean, and it worked fine. Just remember to grease you breech plug and you are good to go. I picked up a Nikon BDC scope for muzzleloaders, but haven't mounted it on the rifle yet.

 

[ashersdad]

I don't claim to know much about muzzleloaders. But, I do have a TC Triumph with the Nikon BDC scope and I love the setup. Pretty accurate and fun to shoot. Once I learned how to clean the thing it was no big deal as Bambi pointed out.

 

[Whiskers]

TC Encore gets my vote. I have never missed a deer with that gun, its easy to clean, and I can get different barrels for it. Thats what I shot the bear with in my Maine Video.

I have done some minor repairs on Knights, and was not impressed with the disc thing.

If you get an Encore, there is a safety feature built in that I was unaware of until recently. If there is no slack in the trigger the gun will not @#)(#. Having game close, and using a hammer gun, I always pull the trigger while cocking the gun (pointed safely down range) to eliminate the click. On an Encore if you do that, you cannot pull the hammer back. I didn't figure that out until after the bear hunt while I was dismantling the gun to see what the problem was.

 

[Bambistew]

What weren't you impressed with as far as the Discs are concerned?

I like the fact that I don't have to fumble around with a primer, the disc makes them managable with gloves on, also drop it in and close the bolt and its ready to fire, no nead to @#)(# or uncock... put the safty on big deal. With a TC you dang near need a priming tool, and its almost impossible with gloves on.

I can't see how they would fail to impress... there's noting to it, but a disc with a primer in it and a cut out on the bolt you drop it in...

I think Encores are uglier than an abortion... aka transexual rifles.

 

[Steiny]

Muzzle loaders suck, any in-line is pretty much as good as the next, so long as it goes off every time you fire it. If what you have works, I wouldn't switch. Shots should be 100 yards or less anyway, if you are hunting wood lots.

What part of Indiana are you hunting Thumper?
Maybe I can give you some insight.

 

[257Tony]

I owned one Knight, and won't make that mistake again, it absolutely would not hold consecutive shots even on the paper without swabbing between shots. Haven't looked back since buying an Omega 5 years ago, easily keeps 3 shots in 3" with no swabbing.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

My buddies adn I ahve taken several elk with Knights, and have had no problems at all, and 2-inch groups were the norm once you figured out what powder charge and bullet your rifle liked. We all used Powerbels and Pyrodex pellets. The "magic" charge seemed to be between 110 and 130 gr. With little plastic tubes as speed loaders, they worked fine. The disc fit in below the bullets in the tube - from the bottom: primer in disc, bullet (tip down), pellets, then cap. To load, take cap off, dump pellets, pull out bullet ad keep primer disc in hand or tube. Start bullet, rame it down, put disc in, close bolt...ready to go. I did not swab every shot - about every 3rd shot and did not use a dry patch.

The discs are a lot easier to handle that loose primers.

 

[JASON LEE]

thompson encore

 

[Bambistew]

Tony... I'll try and remember to take a picture next time I take one of my Knights to the range. I can hold 3" with open sights. The 45 has a scope on it, shooting pellets it will shoot dang near as good as most of my CF rifles.

 

[schmalts]

I dissagree that all muzzel loaders are the same. I had a Traditions that was a turd, and replaced it with a TC Omega. Looking down the bore of both was a shock! One had tooling marks everywhere and one looked to be honed and polished. Guess what one shot better?
I recently put a scope on my Omega for the AZ deer tag I got and at that time I found out how accurate the thing really is. I can ring my 12" gong all day long with it at 250 yards, and even most shots @300. crazy accurate for a smoke pole, but not really with a ballistic scope I guess. Trick is to load identicle between rounds. I do a spit patch between every shot and scrub out the rough feeling fouling in the first few inches down by the breech and follow with 2 dry patches. Takes a minute to do, and can shoot all day that way.
One other thing, with both guns I found there was a bullet weight that each gun liked. My TC likes the 300+ bullets. If your gun will not shoot get different weight bullets and try again. Heavier is probably better in most guns.
They suck to shoot if you hate cleaning guns (like me) but they open up some other hunting seasons that make it worth while.
give it a try

 

[257Tony]

Tony... I'll try and remember to take a picture next time I take one of my Knights to the range. I can hold 3" with open sights. The 45 has a scope on it, shooting pellets it will shoot dang near as good as most of my CF rifles.

With Pyrodex and zero cleaning between shots? (No 777 cheating allowed)

 

[JB]

trip7 is/might be a tad-bit cleaner burning than pyrodex........clean shot is the way to go, aint that right Bambi?

trow in anudder vote for the ugly Encore.

 

[Bambistew]

Anyone tried Blackhorn?

That cleanshot/ was the most inconsistent powder I've ever tried. I think I could have almost thrown the bullet faster than a 90gr charge could propell it. If you can hear the bullet flying through the air, you know its slow.

777 isn't all that special, burns a little hotter with the weight charge of Pyro. Pyro makes me gag/cough/eyes water something fierce when inhaled. I can't say as I really saw any differnce between the two other than the fumes?

I honestly dont' think a guy could go wrong with a TC or Knight. They both have nice triggers, they have the same barrels. Knight however puts on cheap ass sights, and uses a POS ramrod.

Like saying a Dodge is better than a Ford... which BTW are both junk if you drive a Chevy.

 

[JB]

BS, you should give it another try.

will try the blackhorn in a couple weeks and see how it stacks up. (sounds dirty )

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Thump, that CVA POS might have been a real winner and an excellent shooter if some load development had been tried. Even my old school sidelocks would walk all over the place until I dinked around with different charges, caps and bullet weights. They shoot nice now.
My brother totally ruined his cheap CVA sidelock by not cleaning it. I tried to lap the bore but it was a waste of time. Blackpowder rifles must be cleaned perfectly each and every time they are fired. Leaving blackpowder residue in the bore for more than 12 -24 hours is a death sentence.
I could care less if the Encore is butt ugly; only if they're good shooters. I've heard they are. Never owned one so I can't say. I do own a Knight Bighorn .50cal and it shoots better with open sights than it should. Shoots sabots with 3 Pyrodex pellets just fine. It's bore is a freakin' work of art. Zero tool marks, polished like a mirror. I love the Tirillium dot open sights (can't use a scope in Calif. and Nevada). Went with the 209 shotgun primer option. Adjusted the trigger exactly how I like it, and the lockring on the striker makes it doubly safe. It's as accurate as my opensighted .30-06; 3 inch, 3 shot groups @ 100 yards.
The Bighorn came out before the Disk option was available. My only complaint is it's dinky capping port. Pushing a 209 primer into the anvil takes some talent. I forces me to carry a special capping tool if I have any intention of reloading quickly.
I wish I could tell you exactly which rifle and matching loading supplies to buy to insure an accurate blackpowder rifle. It's impossable because there's no such thing as turnkey smokepole. Some hunters buy stuff cause it's got a cool-sounding name like 'the Flattener' or something lamer. I've found I've had to match each and every product to the rifle to get the performance I've demanded.

 

[Bambistew]

Dave, do you have a link to the sights you're talking about? Is it a holographic sight or what?

 

[1_pointer]

If I decide to crack out the smokepole for deer in UT (scopes of 1X only) next year, I'm seriously thinking of trying a peep site. I've seen where Knight and some others make a couple that look pretty sturdy and allow for changes in windage and elevation. That a a fiber optic front site should work I'd think.

 

[Bambistew]

Pointer, I would go with a scope if you can, even at 1 power it would be 10x easier to see the target in low light.

Williams makes a peep for just about every muzzy made, check Midway or Brownells if thats what you're after.

I had to do minor surgery on one of my rifles last week. Put on a new front ramp/sight and a peep. The factory front sight on Knight rifles are pretty chincy, I broke two of them before giving up, they're made of alluminium, and the fiber optic in them is very week. Broke one leaning it against a rock, broke the second pulling it out of a rifle case. I replaced it with a Williams steel front ramp with dovetail, and installed a steel Marbels fiber optic blade. The ramp had to be modified a little to work due to it being the only one I could find with the right hole spacing, but the contour was slighly off. I also had to stone the dovetail a little. Its considerably more solidly built, and cost me about $16. I think the factory front sight costs that much.

I had an issue that I ran out of adjustment for elevation on my rear sight, so I had to go with a shorter front sight anyway, and now have the ability to change out the blades easily and cheaply. All in all I think its rock solid now.