JoseCuervo
New member
Let's keep everybody busy watching us hunt for two-bit dictators in Bananna Republics around the world, while not noticing your neighbor is out of work....
It's The Economy, Stupid.....
- Thread starter JoseCuervo
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Calif. Hunter
Active member
I hear this all the time, and statistics can never lie (we all know that 
), but everyone I know is working, most are making more $$$ than ever and I see "Help Wanted" signs everywhere. Home prices are up and foreclosures are way down ( high foreclosure figures are usually an indication of a poor economy.)
The loss of manufacturing jobs has more to do with companies relocating outside the US for cheaper labor in order to compete with the foreign manufacturers. We'd better focus on education or our kids will witness the deterioration of the US into a second-rate economy. Originality and creation of new technologies or products will be the only thing we have going for us, as service industries aren't going to provide the lifestyle we expect. (Unions notwithstanding, we cannot keep paying someone $25 an hour for labor on a manufacuring line and expect to compete in the global economy.)
When countries or cultures consume more than they produce, they soon collapse.
), but everyone I know is working, most are making more $$$ than ever and I see "Help Wanted" signs everywhere. Home prices are up and foreclosures are way down ( high foreclosure figures are usually an indication of a poor economy.)The loss of manufacturing jobs has more to do with companies relocating outside the US for cheaper labor in order to compete with the foreign manufacturers. We'd better focus on education or our kids will witness the deterioration of the US into a second-rate economy. Originality and creation of new technologies or products will be the only thing we have going for us, as service industries aren't going to provide the lifestyle we expect. (Unions notwithstanding, we cannot keep paying someone $25 an hour for labor on a manufacuring line and expect to compete in the global economy.)
When countries or cultures consume more than they produce, they soon collapse.
JoseCuervo
New member
Cali,Originally posted by Calif. Hunter:
I hear this all the time, and statistics can never lie (we all know that
We'd better focus on education or our kids will witness the deterioration of the US into a second-rate economy.
Is there a number up there that is a "lie"? They all seem pretty solid to me, and they seem like things that I can beleive, based on primary observations. If you are going to dismiss them as "statistics" and a "lie", can you fill the rest of us in on the "lies"?
But I do agree with you Education being the way out of the mess Dubya has us in. I just have never heard anybody refer to Dubya as "The Great Educator". Is this one of his new "Strategery" ideas???
Bambistew
Well-known member
The people that are out of work right now don't want to find a job! At any given time there are at least a thousand+ jobs in the newspaper here... and thats only a hand full of the actual jobs out there right now. Under qualified people want to be over paid and it just can't happen here anymore. We can't compete with countries like China and India. How much brain power does it take to put a car together? Or a toaster? Or??? Virtually none, thats why companies can outsource thier manufacturing to countries with people that didn't even attend school!
I changed jobs about a year ago in the midst of the all the "job losses/recession". I had 5 offers in less than a week. Boy, the economy is really bad! Maybe people need to look at other fields of work instead of bitching about the one thier in doing poorly.
I don't feel sorry for people that can't take care of themselves. I high school diploma won't get you much any more except a "$18,244" job, two cars and a house... Maybe they should attend college?
People have no one to blame but themselves if they can't get a job. Maybe they should have tried a little harder in school, or been a little more ambitious in their jobs, etc. etc.
Thats life, its not the presidents fault that thier lazy, its their own.
I changed jobs about a year ago in the midst of the all the "job losses/recession". I had 5 offers in less than a week. Boy, the economy is really bad! Maybe people need to look at other fields of work instead of bitching about the one thier in doing poorly.
I don't feel sorry for people that can't take care of themselves. I high school diploma won't get you much any more except a "$18,244" job, two cars and a house... Maybe they should attend college?
People have no one to blame but themselves if they can't get a job. Maybe they should have tried a little harder in school, or been a little more ambitious in their jobs, etc. etc.
Thats life, its not the presidents fault that thier lazy, its their own.
P
pawclaws
Guest
Damn Bambistew!! Hope you didn't hurt anyone's feelings or bruise their egos!! Very well said!!
Very well said!! I'll third the notion of increasing the quality of education in America. This country has been living on the brain-trust of the World for almost ever. The public education system in the US is nearly laughable. As it stands now, I have little interest in sending my children, when I have them, to any public school. And no, vouchers are not a good answer.
dgibson
New member
Bambi, I largely agree with your sentiments, but it's not quite that simple. A person who's well-educated and highly trained in monkey kidney removal still can't get a job if there's no openings in monkey kidney removal.
As a "subset" of what you describe, I believe that a large part of the problem is that there are too many people trying to get the so-called "good" jobs, and a dearth of people willing to take less glamorous ones.
As one example, AP recently had an article predicting that there will soon be an excess of pediatricians in the U.S. Everybody and their brother wants to be a pediatrician, largely because it pays a helluva lot of money, but also because you get to work with kids, etc., etc. Alternatively, hospitals throughout the midwest are desparate for nurses, pharmacists, and other less-trendy professions.
My wife's employer is literally offering to pay Pharm school tuition for anyone who agrees to work for them for 'x' number of years (plus a large bonus and very good pay), and can't get a single taker. Nurses are being offered huge bonuses, too.
So it's not necessarily that there's not enough jobs, or even good-paying ones, but rather that there's only so many fashionable ones.
As a "subset" of what you describe, I believe that a large part of the problem is that there are too many people trying to get the so-called "good" jobs, and a dearth of people willing to take less glamorous ones.
As one example, AP recently had an article predicting that there will soon be an excess of pediatricians in the U.S. Everybody and their brother wants to be a pediatrician, largely because it pays a helluva lot of money, but also because you get to work with kids, etc., etc. Alternatively, hospitals throughout the midwest are desparate for nurses, pharmacists, and other less-trendy professions.
My wife's employer is literally offering to pay Pharm school tuition for anyone who agrees to work for them for 'x' number of years (plus a large bonus and very good pay), and can't get a single taker. Nurses are being offered huge bonuses, too.
So it's not necessarily that there's not enough jobs, or even good-paying ones, but rather that there's only so many fashionable ones.
Tom
New member
Check this out. Its the total nonfarm us jobs plotted over the last several years.
Remember 9/11/01, its where the plot changes.
http://data.bls.gov/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?request_action=wh&graph_name=CE_cesbref1
However, it is coming up and has been quite a while. Unemployment has been going down and jobs have been coming up.
Remember 9/11/01, its where the plot changes.
http://data.bls.gov/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?request_action=wh&graph_name=CE_cesbref1
However, it is coming up and has been quite a while. Unemployment has been going down and jobs have been coming up.
Calif. Hunter
Active member
For one thing, I wonder how they come up with these numbers. Who goes around and counts the want ads in the paper or the signs outside the plants I drive past every morning? The poverty level cannot be established for the entire nation as one figure. What is poverty in Orange County, California would be a decent wage in Anadarko, OK. So the figures are at best, an assumption, and you know what the first 3 letters of that spell.
And didn't Bush start a program called "No Child Left Behind?"
And didn't Bush start a program called "No Child Left Behind?"
Bambistew
Well-known member
Darren I completely agree with you... Still how is it Bush's fault that these people aren't willing to work in a "trendy" job? Is the government supposed to supply them with a trendy job? What’s keeping these people from filling the niche that needs to be filled? Ambition… they don’t want to put forth the effort to do it.
People need to look into the future and take an educated guess at what they could be doing in the next 10-50 years. Nothing is a guarantee that’s life, it they want to stay in the same job the rest of their life and have "job security" then they should move to China or Korea. They’d be more than happy to plan out their lives for them.
Engineering is becoming one of those non trendy professions as well. Collages are having a hard time recruiting freshman that want to be engineers, of any discipline. Consequently companies are going over to places like India, China and Japan to hire graduates that would give their eye teeth to work and live in the US. But again that’s Bush's fault because kids are to lazy to put forth the brain power to be an Engineer. Engineering has been around for millenniums. They would rather play on computers all day instead of learn how to build one and its components... Where the real money and very secure jobs are!
You pointed out nurses and EMT's etc... Take a look at general practice doctors, same thing. Hospitals have to hire them from places like India and the Philippines, again because the med students in US aren’t willing to put forth the extra year or two to get the credits to become one. They make relatively the same amount of money as a specialized doctor but it takes more work to be one. Nurses, yeah look at how many nurses are Philippino next time you go to the doctor. Again that’s Bush’s fault because kids don’t want work like that.
We need to stop codling our children and teach them to strive for more than "that’s good enough". What has happened to ambition in this country? Bush must have taken it away!
The people that are ambitious are treated like their convicts because they made a bunch of money some way, shape, or form… Look at how the liberals portray that, when was the last time you heard them talk about giving tax cuts to the rich? Every damn day! The average American has no idea that the “rich” already pay a higher percentage per personal income in taxes than they do, or that the “rich” supply the lions share of the tax money to our government to support lazy pieces of shit! But that’s ok because they make more money, they can afford it. Do you think that loss of jobs hin the US has anything to do with this?!
People need to look into the future and take an educated guess at what they could be doing in the next 10-50 years. Nothing is a guarantee that’s life, it they want to stay in the same job the rest of their life and have "job security" then they should move to China or Korea. They’d be more than happy to plan out their lives for them.
Engineering is becoming one of those non trendy professions as well. Collages are having a hard time recruiting freshman that want to be engineers, of any discipline. Consequently companies are going over to places like India, China and Japan to hire graduates that would give their eye teeth to work and live in the US. But again that’s Bush's fault because kids are to lazy to put forth the brain power to be an Engineer. Engineering has been around for millenniums. They would rather play on computers all day instead of learn how to build one and its components... Where the real money and very secure jobs are!
You pointed out nurses and EMT's etc... Take a look at general practice doctors, same thing. Hospitals have to hire them from places like India and the Philippines, again because the med students in US aren’t willing to put forth the extra year or two to get the credits to become one. They make relatively the same amount of money as a specialized doctor but it takes more work to be one. Nurses, yeah look at how many nurses are Philippino next time you go to the doctor. Again that’s Bush’s fault because kids don’t want work like that.
We need to stop codling our children and teach them to strive for more than "that’s good enough". What has happened to ambition in this country? Bush must have taken it away!
The people that are ambitious are treated like their convicts because they made a bunch of money some way, shape, or form… Look at how the liberals portray that, when was the last time you heard them talk about giving tax cuts to the rich? Every damn day! The average American has no idea that the “rich” already pay a higher percentage per personal income in taxes than they do, or that the “rich” supply the lions share of the tax money to our government to support lazy pieces of shit! But that’s ok because they make more money, they can afford it. Do you think that loss of jobs hin the US has anything to do with this?!
dgibson
New member
Bambi, I think you and I are barking up the same tree. We both think that the certified monkey kidney remover needs to either accept the fact that his job may not be in high demand and deal with it, or he needs to expand his horizons into other areas. Like you said, that's not Bush's or anyone else's fault.
This discussion brings back old sore spots from the University days...I had a small academic scholarship, and had work full time and take 10-year loans in order to pay for the rest. I got good grades and graduated with the top of my class. Meanwhile, some of my classmates were the children of rich oil barons from the Middle East (literally), barely squeaked by in their classes because they partied and played too much, and had FULL scholarships from the school. Why? Because the school wanted to increase their "international presence."
What does that have to do with the discussion? I'm not really sure, but it sure makes me mad when I think about it.
This discussion brings back old sore spots from the University days...I had a small academic scholarship, and had work full time and take 10-year loans in order to pay for the rest. I got good grades and graduated with the top of my class. Meanwhile, some of my classmates were the children of rich oil barons from the Middle East (literally), barely squeaked by in their classes because they partied and played too much, and had FULL scholarships from the school. Why? Because the school wanted to increase their "international presence."
What does that have to do with the discussion? I'm not really sure, but it sure makes me mad when I think about it.
Tom
New member
I knew a Turk from Iraq in graduate school. His government was paying for his school here. If he didn't go back they would have charged his family for it and taken the services of his brother instead of him. He hated to go back to Iraq, but he did.
We are pretty spoiled here. We have a high standard of living. People want it higher. How do you do that?
We can make movies and sell fast food. The rest of the world is starting to beat us with a lot of the new things they've got going and the cheap labor to do them. That's the problem. Is there any solution to that, anybody?
Note: There's books on how they define and obtain those numbers, basically, they survey the people. Here's a link.
http://www.bls.gov/dolfaq/bls_ques23.htm
We are pretty spoiled here. We have a high standard of living. People want it higher. How do you do that?
We can make movies and sell fast food. The rest of the world is starting to beat us with a lot of the new things they've got going and the cheap labor to do them. That's the problem. Is there any solution to that, anybody?
Note: There's books on how they define and obtain those numbers, basically, they survey the people. Here's a link.
http://www.bls.gov/dolfaq/bls_ques23.htm
DG- I feel your pain. Had a similar experience in college, except I didn't graduate at the top of my class. These same people then had the gall to cry foul when the school cut funding for them for Studying Abroad! Hell, they were already abroad.
Bambi- I agree. Too many people are too short-sighted or feel that they are owed something special because of a degree. As with the monkey kidney puller, if there's no demand they may have to move where there is some or change fields. I also hate the fact that the more money you make the more (percentage) you pay in taxes. The ones footing the bill are the ones who don't need the programs that the lower rate tax payers depend on. I'd favor a flat tax scheme and no breaks for kids!!!
Bambi- I agree. Too many people are too short-sighted or feel that they are owed something special because of a degree. As with the monkey kidney puller, if there's no demand they may have to move where there is some or change fields. I also hate the fact that the more money you make the more (percentage) you pay in taxes. The ones footing the bill are the ones who don't need the programs that the lower rate tax payers depend on. I'd favor a flat tax scheme and no breaks for kids!!!
feclnogn
New member
Actually none of my neighbors are out of work. You know elkgunner, it might be time for you to upgrade and move out of the trailer park to a nicer neiborhood. It sounds like you might be living in a socialist wellfare community if all of your neibors are out of work.
JoseCuervo
New member
Fecl,
I can't move out of the Trailer Park, as I sold the tires and axles from underneath....
DG and Bambi,
I will give you another perspective, just to make you think....
If everybody goes for "General Business" or another "generic" degree, we will likely have a huge problem of everybody having the same general skills.
In an odd sort of way, we need people with very narrow skill sets, with great depth. Some of the greatest advances in history have came from people with a single skill/avocation. We need people to keep pushing the limits on narrow fields in medicine, pharmacy, biogenetics, etc.. etc...
I would hate to think everybody wants to be a "General Studies" major, so they can work anywhere at McDonalds from Drive-Thru to Corporate Marketing. I know you don't value Monkey Kidney Pullers, but if that kidney is going to find a cure for some "orphan" disease, I would hope we have the Monkey Kidney Puller.
Cali,
I think it is great that you calling many of the original numbers "lies", as they came from the Bush administration. Of course, we know Dubya and Company lied to us about Iraq, so it won't be a surprise to hear Dubya is lying about the numbers you question....
Tom,
The data from your graph does not change on September 11, 01, as you claim, but on January 20, 2001.... (Inaugaration Day...) Go look again...
Cali,
I don't know what you call a "good job", but I always thought if they were hanging a "help wanted" sign out by the road, it wasn't a "good job".... Can you let us know the names of the companies and the pay levels, just for calibration? Would it put somebody of the $18k poverty level?
I can't move out of the Trailer Park, as I sold the tires and axles from underneath....
DG and Bambi,
I will give you another perspective, just to make you think....
If everybody goes for "General Business" or another "generic" degree, we will likely have a huge problem of everybody having the same general skills.
In an odd sort of way, we need people with very narrow skill sets, with great depth. Some of the greatest advances in history have came from people with a single skill/avocation. We need people to keep pushing the limits on narrow fields in medicine, pharmacy, biogenetics, etc.. etc...
I would hate to think everybody wants to be a "General Studies" major, so they can work anywhere at McDonalds from Drive-Thru to Corporate Marketing. I know you don't value Monkey Kidney Pullers, but if that kidney is going to find a cure for some "orphan" disease, I would hope we have the Monkey Kidney Puller.
Cali,
I think it is great that you calling many of the original numbers "lies", as they came from the Bush administration. Of course, we know Dubya and Company lied to us about Iraq, so it won't be a surprise to hear Dubya is lying about the numbers you question....
Tom,
The data from your graph does not change on September 11, 01, as you claim, but on January 20, 2001.... (Inaugaration Day...) Go look again...
Cali,
I don't know what you call a "good job", but I always thought if they were hanging a "help wanted" sign out by the road, it wasn't a "good job".... Can you let us know the names of the companies and the pay levels, just for calibration? Would it put somebody of the $18k poverty level?
JoseCuervo
New member
This is pretty funny..... Dubya missed the new jobs by 104,000 this month, but he is counting "Thirty-four workers here, 50 there, two or three here". My guess is Dubya is going to run out of fingers and toes long before he finds the other 104,000 jobs the economists expected....
My guess is Dubya is going to run out of fingers and toes long before he finds the other 104,000 jobs the economists expected....
beardown
New member
Gunner, you should go look at 1000 reasons html. Its 1000 reasons Dubya should be ousted. I think you'll enjoy it! Heres an interesting fact that was on CNN today to, of the 21,000 jobs created in Feb., 95% were temporary goverment jobs. Also did you know that the only reason that unemployment stayed around 5.6% is because they dont count the people that lost their benifits and still cant find employment? Plus we need 150,000 jobs to be created every month just to account for the graduates and immigrants that enter the workforce!
Heres an interesting fact that was on CNN today to, of the 21,000 jobs created in Feb., 95% were temporary goverment jobs. Also did you know that the only reason that unemployment stayed around 5.6% is because they dont count the people that lost their benifits and still cant find employment? Plus we need 150,000 jobs to be created every month just to account for the graduates and immigrants that enter the workforce!
P
pawclaws
Guest
All of the data sources and gathering methods are explained on the BLS site. They will answer questions for you if you don't see what you want or don't understandsomething. They are pretty good folk and not driven by any particular agenda. Also I just completed a cursory review of the statiistics used to forecast labor and productivity indices. I don't see anything other than a standard, typical five and a half year business cycle generally driven by the life expectancy of capital equipment investment. Oh one interesting thing did pop up; it seems that somewhere around 220,000 foreign service jobs were lost since 911 which are counted in our job statistics. You might want to take a look at job growth projections by specialty over the next 10 years; they are kind of interesting and if you compare the numbers for manufacturing productivity and information systems related employment potentially, very revealing.
JoseCuervo
New member
Yawn.......
Erik in AK
New member
I heard something on NPR tonight about the Grocery workers strike in CA. Kroeger's cashiers get 18 bucks an hour to start.
Some egghead economist (sorry I didn't catch his name) said the reason that there has been negative job creation despite an improved
"economy" is because productivity is up. Productivity is up because of automation. The same guy also said that as markets expand to maximize productivity potential, there should be significant job growth in 05-06.
The "economy" is based on whether or not Wall Street is making money--that used to correlate heavily to jobs and unemployment but evidently not anymore
Some egghead economist (sorry I didn't catch his name) said the reason that there has been negative job creation despite an improved
"economy" is because productivity is up. Productivity is up because of automation. The same guy also said that as markets expand to maximize productivity potential, there should be significant job growth in 05-06.
The "economy" is based on whether or not Wall Street is making money--that used to correlate heavily to jobs and unemployment but evidently not anymore
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