Words out the Fish and Game is dropping the bomb shell this next week, several south central Idaho units will be under A.T.V. ban during hunting season, use will be limited to existing full size vehicle roads with no trail acess!! We all could see it coming, I can hardly wait. yippeee h2m
Idaho and A.T.V'S
- Thread starter HUNT2MUCH
- Start date
Ithaca 37
New member
I'm pretty excited, but will have to actually see it to believe it. I'll be a little surprised if it happens as early as this week. Maybe the F&G Commission did it with a conference call, usually they wait 'til they have a meeting.
Ten Bears
New member
I was told that their not even going to touch the subject in our meetings up here. I wonder how they hope to guage the public, if they don't include us? Not a legal notice.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Hopefully the other western states follow suit.
Good job Idaho!
Good job Idaho!
this is all I have found.
In addition to management of wildlife, the Department will also be seeking input on how to manage ATVs’(All Terrain Vehicles) in the future. A survey has been developed to measure what types of management sportsmen feel should pertain to the use of ATVs’ in certain units. The Idaho Fish & Game Commission has instructed the Department to research the ATV issue because the use of such machines falls under the purview of the Commission, as being considered a method of take
http://www2.state.id.us/fishgame/news/NewsReleases/view.cfm?NewsID=1426
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-20-2003 09:00: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>
In addition to management of wildlife, the Department will also be seeking input on how to manage ATVs’(All Terrain Vehicles) in the future. A survey has been developed to measure what types of management sportsmen feel should pertain to the use of ATVs’ in certain units. The Idaho Fish & Game Commission has instructed the Department to research the ATV issue because the use of such machines falls under the purview of the Commission, as being considered a method of take
http://www2.state.id.us/fishgame/news/NewsReleases/view.cfm?NewsID=1426
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-20-2003 09:00: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>
Calif. Hunter
Active member
ATVs as a method of take - what, do you run over the animal with your ATV?
I feely admit I know nothing about Idaho's F&G laws, but here the F&G laws and regs do cover shooting from a vehicle, define loaded weapon in vehicle while hunting ( as opposed to transporting a weapon in general), define how far from a road you have to be to hunt, etc. - so I see no reason why they couldn't regulate ATV use while hunting.
I feely admit I know nothing about Idaho's F&G laws, but here the F&G laws and regs do cover shooting from a vehicle, define loaded weapon in vehicle while hunting ( as opposed to transporting a weapon in general), define how far from a road you have to be to hunt, etc. - so I see no reason why they couldn't regulate ATV use while hunting.
Muledeer4me
New member
It really shouldn't have that much effect on most hunters that use ATV.
They had a list of the units they want to start with and asked how you felt about it and what units you would not agree on and why.
The fish & game officer that we talked to said it's a tough one,because they know its a few illegal one's that make it bad for the rest,he said he also understands that some people get offended to easy and complane about legal use of ATV's.
We agreed that you cant please everyone ,and some people think you should shut down the whole unit for there hunt.
One thing Im not sure of,he said you would still be able to retrieve game off a road if it was OK in the area you were hunting?
As on BLM land.
I think that would make it harder to inforce,with people trying to use that to get around the law.
If's its closed it should be closed.
It wont stop rider's only those hunting .
They will place ATVs under (method of take)that way fish & game can restrict it.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-20-2003 09:33: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>
They had a list of the units they want to start with and asked how you felt about it and what units you would not agree on and why.
The fish & game officer that we talked to said it's a tough one,because they know its a few illegal one's that make it bad for the rest,he said he also understands that some people get offended to easy and complane about legal use of ATV's.
We agreed that you cant please everyone ,and some people think you should shut down the whole unit for there hunt.
One thing Im not sure of,he said you would still be able to retrieve game off a road if it was OK in the area you were hunting?
As on BLM land.
I think that would make it harder to inforce,with people trying to use that to get around the law.
If's its closed it should be closed.
It wont stop rider's only those hunting .
They will place ATVs under (method of take)that way fish & game can restrict it.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-20-2003 09:33: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>
Bullhound
New member
I added a bunch of units up north when I filled out the proposal questionaire.
I discussed the idea of retrieval only last year at some length with Clower and Irby. Make it clear that you can retrieve game with your ATV but cannot have it off of major roads to hunt. You don't need your weapon if you are just retrieving game. Stiff penalties for those who are off road and have their weapon with them on the ATV.
I discussed the idea of retrieval only last year at some length with Clower and Irby. Make it clear that you can retrieve game with your ATV but cannot have it off of major roads to hunt. You don't need your weapon if you are just retrieving game. Stiff penalties for those who are off road and have their weapon with them on the ATV.
BuzzH
Well-known member
I dont believe its just a "few" ATV hunters that are causing problems. Not from what I've seen.
In the November/December Wyoming Wildlife news there is an article about good, bad and ugly hunting experiences in Wyoming...take a guess what the number 1 complaint was?
Yep, ATV abuse, the author of that article said this, "I would have to say that complaints about ATV use really took the cake. Horror story after horror story recounted disruption and destruction...careless and illegal activities of those on four wheelers. Many hunters wrote that this completely ruined long-planned hunting trips. Most hunters suggested that ATV use be restricted to specific hours as has been done elsewhere."
Seems like theres more than a few bad apples out there.......
It also appears that the foot soldiers are letting the fish and game know about it too.
The end is drawing near for the beloved ATV.
In the November/December Wyoming Wildlife news there is an article about good, bad and ugly hunting experiences in Wyoming...take a guess what the number 1 complaint was?
Yep, ATV abuse, the author of that article said this, "I would have to say that complaints about ATV use really took the cake. Horror story after horror story recounted disruption and destruction...careless and illegal activities of those on four wheelers. Many hunters wrote that this completely ruined long-planned hunting trips. Most hunters suggested that ATV use be restricted to specific hours as has been done elsewhere."
Seems like theres more than a few bad apples out there.......
It also appears that the foot soldiers are letting the fish and game know about it too.
The end is drawing near for the beloved ATV.
so I wonder what happens to the people who are not hunting, and just want to go for a ride during hunting season?
Will they also be banned?
I would like to see restrictions limiting the hours atv's could be used.
But I also think they should be allowed anywhere that trucks are allowed.
If atv's are banned from certain areas then close them completly to motorized travel
Will they also be banned?
I would like to see restrictions limiting the hours atv's could be used.
But I also think they should be allowed anywhere that trucks are allowed.
If atv's are banned from certain areas then close them completly to motorized travel
BuzzH
Well-known member
I would think they could still ride an ATV, just not while hunting.
Thats fine with me, I can deal with a few recreational riders. I bet one of every 100 ATV's used during a hunting season is a recreational rider.
Thats fine with me, I can deal with a few recreational riders. I bet one of every 100 ATV's used during a hunting season is a recreational rider.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Mike, I agree that ATV's should be legal anywhere trucks are. Are they proposing to ban ATV's even on the roads that are open to car and truck traffic?
Ithaca 37
New member
Here's today's newspaper article. It's also in a topic in SI called "F&G looks at season changes".
http://www.idahostatesman.com/Extras/IdahoOutdoors/story.asp?ID=33459
"In certain units, their use would be restricted to “established roadways open to motorized vehicle traffic capable of travel by full-sized automobiles.”"
This is the beginning of the end for the ATVs. Now we've just gotta continue closing more units to them. It'll happen as hunters see how much more pleasant the hunting is where the ATVs are banned. The ATV riders will now crowd into the units still open and make them worse than ever.
Once again I'll be making my comments known to the F&G Commission, as I was so heavily criticized for by two other posters in this topic:
"Ithaca Supports Extending....."
http://www.huntandlodge.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=001307&p=1
My recommendations to the F&G Commission were to extend quail season, lower turkey tag fees, change the Clearwater permit and restrict ATVs.
Well, we got lower turkey tag fees. Now we're looking at ATV restrictions and changing the Clearwater permit. Now we just have to work on the quail seasons a little more.
And before anyone jumps on me let me point out that these changes have been in the works for some time. I was just trying to put a few more nails in the coffin when I appeared before the Commission.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-20-2003 19:25: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
http://www.idahostatesman.com/Extras/IdahoOutdoors/story.asp?ID=33459
"In certain units, their use would be restricted to “established roadways open to motorized vehicle traffic capable of travel by full-sized automobiles.”"
This is the beginning of the end for the ATVs. Now we've just gotta continue closing more units to them. It'll happen as hunters see how much more pleasant the hunting is where the ATVs are banned. The ATV riders will now crowd into the units still open and make them worse than ever.
Once again I'll be making my comments known to the F&G Commission, as I was so heavily criticized for by two other posters in this topic:
"Ithaca Supports Extending....."
http://www.huntandlodge.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=001307&p=1
My recommendations to the F&G Commission were to extend quail season, lower turkey tag fees, change the Clearwater permit and restrict ATVs.
Well, we got lower turkey tag fees. Now we're looking at ATV restrictions and changing the Clearwater permit. Now we just have to work on the quail seasons a little more.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-20-2003 19:25: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Good job Ithaca! Keep up the good work.
Ten Bears
New member
BUZZ, if you counted the number of people just out for an ATV ride, and not even hunting, I think you'd be suprised. I ran into groups of 2 - 10 people on the roads, and open trails, in and out of where I was hunting, and they were just riding to ride on the weekends.
I also saw some illegal ATV use, as I described here last hunting season. I reported the guys I saw.
I think if an area is going to be closed to hunters on ATV's, it should be closed to all ATV's. Otherwise it is nothing more then divide and conquer tactics. You complain about slob hunters this round, and next round you'll complain about people too "fat and lazy" to even hunt.
I would support "open hours of travel" for game retrieval, or just riding. I think it will be confusing for a lot of people at first, and will turn the nonhunting ATV crowd against hunters in general (if they aren't already). More so because it would be seen by them as the "hunters" regulating their recreational use, for the benefit of the hunters.
I would support the use of ATV's for game retrieval, with no rifle on the ATV (maybe even shotguns too, heaven forbid somebody shoot a grouse while ATV riding - that would be hunting you know), but I think that a pistol should be allowed (now they'll shoot several times at the grouse). This, in the rare event that when the hunter returns to his game, and a bear has claimed the carcass. I know of one such incident that occurred this past season in the clearwater area.
These guys were hunting miles back (they don't use ATV's anyway), killed two bulls, dressed'em, and by the time they got their packs back in for the second elk, three bears (sow and yearlings) had claimed the kill, even though the hunters harassed them , the bears wouldn't give it up. The hunters had left all of their guns (even pistols) behind to keep the loads light. They said the thought had occured to them to go back and get the guns, and kill two of the bears (they had tags), but they didn't want to have to pack out the bears, and what was left of the elk. BTW they ended up leaving the elk to the bears (thoughts?).
Who is to say that when a person goes ATV "riding", that they can't carry a gun (can you say gun control?)? When I go fishing in mountainous lakes, ATV riding, hiking, and camping, I carry at least one pocket knife (their cheap because I usually lose at least one of them), binoculars, and a pistol. Is that hunting, or recreating?
Hunting season is usually closed, but some times I go fishing or camping at the lakes during hunting season. What then? Am I considered to be hunting at one time of the year, but not the other? I seem to recall that there is no difference drawn by some who visit here, between a poacher with an ATV, and a legal hunter with an ATV. Maybe I decided to go camping during hunting season (I usually camp when I hunt)? Could I pack in my camping gear to my camp site with my ATV, if I don't have my rifle (or other guns), and then hike in with my hunting rifle? If so, how about when I pack out? Would I have to hike the guns out first, and then go back for my camp? There is no law that says, even if I have a license and tags that I have to hunt, or even be hunting at that time. I have to have them inorder to hunt, but having them alone does not mean that I am hunting. In Idaho I don't even have to have a hunting license to have gun in the woods. Who is going to show what my true intent is?
Better yet, who is going to report the illegal activities in the first place?
I know from postings here that those who claim to be effected the most by ATV's, are also the ones that don't want to get involved in reporting violators. So lets see, you cry about it, you want it to be more illegal (thus ridding the area of legal riders/hunters - displacing those same persons whom you want to police their own ranks), and you wont collect information to report a violation when you encounter it. If you are counting on the non-hunting ATV riders to report the illegal ATV hunters, you gotta be kidding me, these guys don't care, their out recreating having fun, and most of them don't even know when huntng seasons open or close. Wasn't one of the "not get involved in reporting violators, but outlaw ATV's for hunting" once a citizens against poaching director? That must feel pretty good.
I think if the detractors of ATV's would actually stop to count the number of ATV "riders" vs. the number of hunters who have ATV's (it must be out of their truck, because mine rides in the back of the truck more then it ever sees the ground), they'd be suprised. Probably never admit it, that would mean admitting they were wrong about something, but they might be suprised (privately) none the less.
I'm going to forward this to the local game warden, and see what he thinks.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-21-2003 09:27: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
I also saw some illegal ATV use, as I described here last hunting season. I reported the guys I saw.
I think if an area is going to be closed to hunters on ATV's, it should be closed to all ATV's. Otherwise it is nothing more then divide and conquer tactics. You complain about slob hunters this round, and next round you'll complain about people too "fat and lazy" to even hunt.
I would support "open hours of travel" for game retrieval, or just riding. I think it will be confusing for a lot of people at first, and will turn the nonhunting ATV crowd against hunters in general (if they aren't already). More so because it would be seen by them as the "hunters" regulating their recreational use, for the benefit of the hunters.
I would support the use of ATV's for game retrieval, with no rifle on the ATV (maybe even shotguns too, heaven forbid somebody shoot a grouse while ATV riding - that would be hunting you know), but I think that a pistol should be allowed (now they'll shoot several times at the grouse). This, in the rare event that when the hunter returns to his game, and a bear has claimed the carcass. I know of one such incident that occurred this past season in the clearwater area.
These guys were hunting miles back (they don't use ATV's anyway), killed two bulls, dressed'em, and by the time they got their packs back in for the second elk, three bears (sow and yearlings) had claimed the kill, even though the hunters harassed them , the bears wouldn't give it up. The hunters had left all of their guns (even pistols) behind to keep the loads light. They said the thought had occured to them to go back and get the guns, and kill two of the bears (they had tags), but they didn't want to have to pack out the bears, and what was left of the elk. BTW they ended up leaving the elk to the bears (thoughts?).
Who is to say that when a person goes ATV "riding", that they can't carry a gun (can you say gun control?)? When I go fishing in mountainous lakes, ATV riding, hiking, and camping, I carry at least one pocket knife (their cheap because I usually lose at least one of them), binoculars, and a pistol. Is that hunting, or recreating?
I know from postings here that those who claim to be effected the most by ATV's, are also the ones that don't want to get involved in reporting violators. So lets see, you cry about it, you want it to be more illegal (thus ridding the area of legal riders/hunters - displacing those same persons whom you want to police their own ranks), and you wont collect information to report a violation when you encounter it. If you are counting on the non-hunting ATV riders to report the illegal ATV hunters, you gotta be kidding me, these guys don't care, their out recreating having fun, and most of them don't even know when huntng seasons open or close. Wasn't one of the "not get involved in reporting violators, but outlaw ATV's for hunting" once a citizens against poaching director? That must feel pretty good.
I think if the detractors of ATV's would actually stop to count the number of ATV "riders" vs. the number of hunters who have ATV's (it must be out of their truck, because mine rides in the back of the truck more then it ever sees the ground), they'd be suprised. Probably never admit it, that would mean admitting they were wrong about something, but they might be suprised (privately) none the less.
I'm going to forward this to the local game warden, and see what he thinks.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-21-2003 09:27: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ten, I think what most game and fish agencies are considering is limiting the hours of operation. Like say 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. for game retrieval. I also believe they should not be allowed anywhere that a full sized auto cant go. NO off-road travel for any reason, even game retrieval.
You make is sound like further limiting them would be impossible to enforce, I dont think so.
Whether you want to believe it or not, ATV abuse is probably the number one complaint in MT, ID, WY, AZ, etc. each year. Agencies are going to limit their use during hunting seasons, thats a fact you can count on. Its coming quickly too.
You can post hypothetical situations from now until hell freezes over, but its really pointless to do so. Bottom line is lots of hunters are sick and tired of ATV's ruining the sport and ruining hunting in general. ATVers have done it to themselves and I cant feel sorry for them. I see flagrant violations each year by ATV hunters, I turn them in when possible and when I think a case can stick.
Rarely do I ever see violations other than ATV abuse each year.
You make is sound like further limiting them would be impossible to enforce, I dont think so.
Whether you want to believe it or not, ATV abuse is probably the number one complaint in MT, ID, WY, AZ, etc. each year. Agencies are going to limit their use during hunting seasons, thats a fact you can count on. Its coming quickly too.
You can post hypothetical situations from now until hell freezes over, but its really pointless to do so. Bottom line is lots of hunters are sick and tired of ATV's ruining the sport and ruining hunting in general. ATVers have done it to themselves and I cant feel sorry for them. I see flagrant violations each year by ATV hunters, I turn them in when possible and when I think a case can stick.
Rarely do I ever see violations other than ATV abuse each year.
Ten Bears
New member
BUZZ, I'm not posting hypotheticals. I'm asking serious questions on how you plan to enforce it. Are you talking about total trail closures on all federal lands? Year round, or seasonal (to fit hunting seasons)? How are you going to address it to the ATV riding nonhunting public without turning them against hunting in general? And if your answer is you don't care, then you don't grasp the weight of the issue.
Ten Bears
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You can post hypothetical situations from now until hell freezes over, but its really pointless to do so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is that like saying "Surrender, Resistance is Futile"?
I see all kinds of violation in the woods. From wood cutters collecting firewood (without permits I'm just certain of it), too archery hunters placing salt or bait for big game. How about the guys that go out and nail their tree stands to trees (usually over their salt or bait)? I see pheasant and turkey hunters walking in fields of farmers, that I know wouldn't give them permission (I've checked with the farmers). Many of the farmers have given up on reporting the incidents as a measure of futility. I have found headless carcasses in the woods (rotting / no attempt to retrieve them).
I have found carcasses with only the best portions of meat removed.
You tell me that all you see is illegal ATV riding. I say you may suffer from tunnel or selective vision.
Is that like saying "Surrender, Resistance is Futile"?
I see all kinds of violation in the woods. From wood cutters collecting firewood (without permits I'm just certain of it), too archery hunters placing salt or bait for big game. How about the guys that go out and nail their tree stands to trees (usually over their salt or bait)? I see pheasant and turkey hunters walking in fields of farmers, that I know wouldn't give them permission (I've checked with the farmers). Many of the farmers have given up on reporting the incidents as a measure of futility. I have found headless carcasses in the woods (rotting / no attempt to retrieve them).
You tell me that all you see is illegal ATV riding. I say you may suffer from tunnel or selective vision.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ten, the FS, States, etc. already have road closures at certain times of the year for all sorts of reasons. Adding one more to keep ATV's out of key areas by limiting travel is really easy, also easy to enforce. You get caught on an ATV in the closure, you get a ticket...not complicated.
To simplify things I'd only allow recreational riding between the designated hours as well, again pretty easy to enforce, you get caught on an ATV, other than in the designated hours...press hard theres five copies.
I dont think that would pit hunters against recreational ATV riders. 10 months out of the year, no restrictions, 2 months you have more restrictions....thats what the ATV crowd has done to itself. Hunters havent restricted recreational riders, ATV hunters have. I dont own an ATV, how am I responsible? I didnt violate laws on an ATV, chase game on my ATV, go behind closed gates on an ATV, run my ATV off-road, ruin someones hunt while on my ATV, etc. etc.
Whether you like it or not, thats the direction this thing is taking and at great speed. Despite what you and MD4ME say, the industry simply has not responded to the abuses, they havent, wheres the proof they have? What have they done? Nothing expect sell more and more machines to get you further and further from a road. It gets worse and worse every year and has been for a long time. You cant argue with the facts, and the agencies are getting lots of pressure to limit ATV use. I've written the BLM, FS, the fish and game departments in ID, WY, MT, and AZ and told them about the problems, on many occasions....apparently I aint the only one. Thats how things change, and limiting ATV use during hunting seasons is the correct thing to do, IMO.
If I was serious about hunting in the very near future, I'd invest in a quality pair of boots and/or horses, and sell the ATV. Unless you need one around your place to retrieve the mail or plow snow, because its looking like you wont be using if for hunting nearly as much.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-21-2003 10:37: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
To simplify things I'd only allow recreational riding between the designated hours as well, again pretty easy to enforce, you get caught on an ATV, other than in the designated hours...press hard theres five copies.
I dont think that would pit hunters against recreational ATV riders. 10 months out of the year, no restrictions, 2 months you have more restrictions....thats what the ATV crowd has done to itself. Hunters havent restricted recreational riders, ATV hunters have. I dont own an ATV, how am I responsible? I didnt violate laws on an ATV, chase game on my ATV, go behind closed gates on an ATV, run my ATV off-road, ruin someones hunt while on my ATV, etc. etc.
Whether you like it or not, thats the direction this thing is taking and at great speed. Despite what you and MD4ME say, the industry simply has not responded to the abuses, they havent, wheres the proof they have? What have they done? Nothing expect sell more and more machines to get you further and further from a road. It gets worse and worse every year and has been for a long time. You cant argue with the facts, and the agencies are getting lots of pressure to limit ATV use. I've written the BLM, FS, the fish and game departments in ID, WY, MT, and AZ and told them about the problems, on many occasions....apparently I aint the only one. Thats how things change, and limiting ATV use during hunting seasons is the correct thing to do, IMO.
If I was serious about hunting in the very near future, I'd invest in a quality pair of boots and/or horses, and sell the ATV. Unless you need one around your place to retrieve the mail or plow snow, because its looking like you wont be using if for hunting nearly as much.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-21-2003 10:37: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
