Idaho and A.T.V'S

[Ten Bears]

WH, the asnwer is NO. There are USFS and BLM lands that are under area restrictions and openings. Some of these "areas" are "open" for motor vehicle use, and that would leave the roads in that area open , but they don't have numbers, signs, markers, or are even on the current maps. Soe of these areas are restricted to motorcycles/ATV's/snowmobiles, and yes the roads there would be open for recreational riders, but closed to hunters with ATV's.

What you are saying is what I want clarified.

I am not familiar with gates in WA, but here were I live a gated road is OPEN to ATV travel 75% of the time, OPEN to motorcycle about 85% of the time, and snowmobiles 95% of the time. We have area closures, and I know of 2 areas designated as ATV recreation areas.

A couple of years ago we had a fatal shooting involving an ATV behind a gate (if anybody can find the story please correct my version, I'm sure I don't have it completely correct): A father and son were hunting on foot behind a gate, late in the day two ATV rider/hunters came along down the road, the father confronts the riders, arguement ensues about whether it's illegal or not, ATV riders leave, father gets madder because they blew him off, father fires a shot over the ATV riders, ATV riders figure he's shooting at them, one rider stops and fatally shoots the father. The road is open to ATV's & motorcycles.

Official Maps, yes lets consider the Panhandle National Forest Maps and road closures. It is in for I think the third printing now to fix the closures for roads and areas. That map was supposed to be out to the public four years ago, but a correct version hasn't made it out yet. I'm betting the management plan will change before this map ever see completion.

The point that even you keep brushing aside is that this plan only effects "hunters". The IF&G can't regulate nonhunters, and there are as many or more nonhunter ATV riders now then there are hunters. The only thing this accomplishes to dismount rider hunters from the machines when they are "hunting", but you guys haven't been able to say what "hunting" is, or when a "hunter" is "hunting".

I'm sure there is an agenda that is not being put into the survey, and I just want some clarification on the vagueness of the survey.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, it sounds like your agenda is to make sure ATVs will not be restricted.

Why don't you give us an ATV restriction plan would work for you. Please keep it simple and workable.

 

[Ten Bears]

My "agenda" is MULTIPLE USE. It seems to me that your agenda is ITHACA USE.

This proposal effects only hunters that are hunting, and has no bearing on game retreival.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Retrieval of legally taken game shall be governed by existing land management travel restrictions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is already ILLEGAL to "hunt from a motorized vehicle" (MARS, that means sitting astride an ATV that isn't running, here).

From page 13 Idaho Big Game Hunting Regulations:
IT IS UNLAWFUL:

To hunt game from any motorized vehicle, EXCEPT for holders of a valid handicapped person's Motor Vehicle Hunting Permit.

To operate any vehicle in an area designated as closed for that specific vehicle type.


What exactly is this proposal trying to address? Do we need to put more restrictions on our restrictions? Like I said before, if it's already illegal, do we need to make it more illegal?

 

[BuzzH]

Yes, there needs to be less areas that are open to ATV's. Areas where atv's arent allowed at all during hunting season, end of story.

Thats what a lot of people want.

I dont think they should even be used for game retrieval, beyond an established designated route as per most USFS or BLM travel plan maps. No off road travel...for any reason. Allowing ANY legal off-road use makes an enforcement nightmare.

The thing thats clouding enforcement is too many loopholes, you can use them off-road for game retrieval, you can argue about a road being open or not, misreading maps, and the list goes on. However, if any given area was simply off limits to ATV's during hunting season, theres no doubt about it. You get caught with one, press hard five copies.

 

[Ten Bears]

Here's a plan:

Place color coded concrete ecology blocks at every road/2track/trail, that leaves any county/state/other (mapped road). People can tear down signs, but a big chunk of concret is hard to destroy. You don't have to block the road. Color system: red = no motorized use, Yellow = limited (caution,know the restirction, put it on the rider to know, post it or paint it on the block if you want), green means open. Would make a great place for hunter information booths as well. Have a copy of the access map posted there, what ever. Violators are violators, and need to be dealt with anyways.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Good idea. Now let's tax the ATV crowd to pay for it, since they're the ones who created the problems and they're the ones who claim they're working to solve them.

You have about 35,000 registered ATVs in Idaho and will need thousands of cement posts. That's a good project for the Blue Ribbon Coalition and all the ATV clubs. What a great public relations project for them! After all, they're the ones concerned about their right to drive ATVs. Let them start working out the details with the FS.

Ten, why don't you take the lead? It's all gotta start somewhere and you're a concerned ATV rider.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-24-2003 10:17: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Ten Bears]

ITHACA, why don't you get an organization and submit a grant application the the ORV fund from the state parks and recreation. I have help the search and rescue with those in the past, and that is the money used to fund the ATV recreation site up here as well. And it wont cost you anything but your time. The fund is funded by the licensed ATV riders when they buy their permits (didn't cost you a cent). I don't have the resopurces to travel that far south to develope a plan, or make the contacts. I still work for a living (that is when I'm working.)

BTW, an ecology block is a concrete block (retangular, not post) that weighs somewhere around 3/4 - 1 ton. That is what makes them hard to deface, or tear down. They are used for retaining walls.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-24-2003 10:34: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[GatoMan]

They can restrict ATV's to certian guidelines but whos actually going to be the person patroling and ticketing the offenders? It won't stop the true abusers from not doing what they normally do. I have never seen a F&G cop actually in the feild during hunting seasons, either there sitting at a check station somewhere or they might go on a patrol and check out a few campgrounds that may have something hanging. You can write all the laws you want but the true abusers out there still abuse weither its drugs, there kids or riding an ATV off a designated trail. It will probably be some rediculous fine of 5 dollars like a seatbelt ticket or something if your caught...lmao. I don't think you will see much of a differnce in the impact from these restrictions.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Ten Bears, I think I said this before, but in my opinion an "established road" is one that is on the map and has an official number assigned to it. Don't the Forest Service and BLM have maps that show all the roads? Obviously there are roads that won't be on those maps, and those would be the roads that are not considered "established." Around here, many roads are gated or dug out to keep motor vehicles out. It's fairly obvious what the intent is when they do that, even when not posted with signs, but ATV riders think their ATV is a license to go anywhere they want. These gated and blocked off roads are great for hunters who don't mind walking and want to get away from the road hunters. The problem is you can't count on the ATV riders parking their ATV's at the gate like everybody else does. I think in most areas it should be fairly obvious where it is legal for a full size passenger vehicle to go and where it is not. Especially if you have the official map of that area and know how to read it, and if you don't you shouldn't be hunting without a guide. It's about time they do something, whether the plan they come up with is perfect or not doesn't matter, at least they are trying to address the problem. I wish the fish and wildlife department would do the same thing here in Washington. Who knows, maybe they will. I know states tend to compare notes and if something is successful in one state it won't be long before the other state does it. I'm hoping Washington will follow Idaho's example.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-24-2003 00:34: Message edited by: Washington Hunter ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, 'Cause it wasn't my idea. It was yours. I follow thru on my ideas, not yours.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Well it does get pretty complicated doesn't it? And I think that's the problem. One thing that needs to change with Forest Service and BLM policy, is that if a road is gated or blocked in any way to keep motorized vehicles out, it should also be officially closed to ATV's and motorcycles. It won't have to be posted "closed to motorized vehicles." Just the gate or blockage will mean exactly that, and everybody will know it. Of course, that's not something the Idaho Fish and Game could do. Or...maybe they could. Why not? Couldn't that be one more rule for hunters? Any blocked or gated road...no motorized vehicles allowed, not even for retrieval of game. It sure would give the guys that don't mind working for their game a lot of nice quiet undisturbed places to hunt. Heck, that should be common sense anyway. What is the purpose of a gate? To keep vehicles out. Duh! But the ATV's go there anyway. Well, I better quit now before I confuse myself even more. It's not my job to figure out how to regulate ATV's and it's not my job to figure out how to enforce them. Let the agencies responsible figure it out.

 

[Ten Bears]

WH, they tell me that gating a road, but allowing ATV/dirt bikes/horses/mountain bikes behind the gate is a way of allowing access, but restricting the use level to reduce effects of erosion.

ITHACA, you want to tax the riders, and I tell you the riders are already being taxed, and how to get the taxes to help, and you walk away. Typical ITHACA, wants everybody else to solve his problem. I say your problem because I don't have a problem with legal riders, you do. I do have a problem with illegal riders, and I have contributed to solutions, you just call to restrict hunters (keep them out of the areas you hunt, or keep them from getting there first,. Which is it). Cut off your nose to spite your face......., but you still wont cure a thing until something can be done about those that are riding illegal to begin with.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-25-2003 09:06: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[Lostagain]

Ten, the ideas of your about the color coded blocks is still just the same as now, only keep the honest people honest. It will help keep the folks info'ed better, which would help.
Everyone has the same problem above that tho; the illegal riders, how to enforce the rules already, penalties, who pays, etc.
IT already posted there is no money, Ten posted the ATV's are already taxed.
My penny's worth, better get everyone to a meeting with a map, draw out the roads/trails that ATV/jeeps/bikes are allowed. All the rest of the area is closed to motorized rigs. Take the map to the USFS, f&G and BLM, and state all signed will go for this but no more no less, send copies to your senators. You don't have to do the whole state just your area, then who ever shows at the meetings gets their input in and those that don't care enough are just sol. All that backfires here is as soon as ya concede some areas the agencies try to close more because of "all" the people that didn't show at the meetings. How to pay for it, have the F&G take a buck outa everyones conservation license.

 

[Ten Bears]

LOST, as it is we pay $10.00 a year for an OFF ROAD sticker (not on road):
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 67-7126. ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT -- DISTRIBUTION OF FEES. There is
established in the state treasurer's office an account to be known and
designated as the "motorbike recreation account." The ten dollar ($10.00)
fee collected for off-highway vehicle registration stickers shall be
allocated as follows:
(1) Vendors shall charge one dollar and fifty cents ($1.50) for a
handling fee;
(2) Up to fifteen percent (15%) shall be allotted to the department for
administration and for the production of registration stickers, which
moneys shall be placed in the motorbike recreation account; and
(3) The remaining funds shall be transmitted to the state treasurer's
office for deposit to the credit of the motorbike recreation account, all
such moneys to be transmitted to the state treasurer on or before the 10th
day of each month. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newidst?sctid=670710026.K

The idea for the colored blocks at the entry came from a similar idea that the county here is trying to get the gate owners to do up here (not sure who's idea it was to paint the gates). It would take care of alot of the "I didn't know" excuses that some of these guy pull. Like I said the block area would be a good place to put an information sign with the most current restrictions also.

Information is the best way to keep honest people honest, but crooks are going to be crooks until something is done to them as a person. Take their ATV, that would be a good start, but they have to be dealt with as individuals. They laugh at the laws that everybody follows, because their crooks (that's what crooks do).

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-25-2003 10:02: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[GatoMan]

It don't matter what laws they come up with they can't inforce half the ones they have now. All these agencies are in budget crisis exspecially now including the whole state. They can't even get there lazy arses to open the gates in the spring that are closed during winter months. Last yr an area I was bear hunting all gates were suppose to be opened....only about 2 where. I ran into a Forest Service survey crew and asked them if they was going to open the gates....ummmm nope thats not are job , someone elses they said....I asked if they had a new travel management map cause maybe things had changed since last yr. The only frigin travel management map they had WAS 1992!! 10 frigin yrs old! The frigin agencys that are suppose to regulate and monitor these things can't even keep up to date on the current issues. Thats all they need to do is write more laws they can't inforce. God forbid we can't have lawmakers that are'nt making any laws. Maybe they will hire some stupid ATV task force to try an inforce laws....cost the taxpayers more money then they will ever see back in benifits to the state. Remeber nothings against the law unless you get caught. A slap on the wrist for riding your bike off the trail isn't going to scare hardly anyone. I know it would'nt me.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, The way to solve my problem is ban all ATVs during hunting season. That won't cost anybody anything. You want some other solution? Figure it out youself, And don't tell me about solving problems and getting things done. I've done plenty of it. I made it real easy for you to get involved in CAP and ATV regulation. Handed you everything on a silver platter. You said you'd rather not get involved.

I'm involved in what I want to be involved in and in my own way. You don't like it? Tough. I'm helping get the things I want done accomplished. I'm not going to fight your battles for you. If you get beat it's your own fault.

 

[Ten Bears]

You handed me nothing. You dropped some names here (as a front I'd say), but never got any contacts set up like you claim. I'm involved with meeting with the local CAP representative and Idaho Wildlife Council, without your assistance. Even legislatively to get money from the ATV fund (what have you done?).

This isn't "my" battle. I hunt down south very little anymore. I post here to help all hunters, (I'm trying to help the same people you'd like to oppress) not just the self serving ones (I don't see my way as being the only way, but it is the most open minded).

You want to tax ATV riders, and I say they are taxed already. What tax/cost have you contributed for improvements for trails/bridges/crossings/outhouses/roads/information centers(that ATV riders haven't paid, as well as there sticker tax)?

You talk a good talk about opportunity, but your walk is more limited then an ATV rider. It's ok if somebody likes the same opportunity you like, but limit those that don't agree with you, right?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-25-2003 11:43: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, You musta forgot I offered to arrange for you to talk to the people at the very top of CAP and you said you'd rather start locally. Looks like you got nowhere, and then gave up.

Starting out slow and then tapering off might be your style, but not mine.

 

[Ten Bears]

Answer the questions.

What cost have you afforded for improvemnts and access that the riders haven't?

 

[Ithaca 37]

Non, Just taxes. I'm not into paying for anything more for the ATV riders either. When I want something I start figuring out ways to pay for it. Let them figure out how to pay for all the ATV stuff they want.

I just want them banned during hunting season. That'll solve the whole problem for free.