How Old Was that Animal?

[ImBillT]

Looking at that nose, I would say he is old. I would also bet he was never much for antlers. Tough to guess age from a few pictures, I like to have a few years of history before I start to estimate age.

I don't have the data you are looking for, I base my thoughts on the dozens of whitetail deer I have watched grow old. Almost all of them grew their best set of antlers past the age of 5 or 6. I found the sheds from most of those deer. In this thread I have posted examples of three. All three are at least 8 years old and all three grew the best set the last year of there life. Some of the dozens grew antlers in the 160+ others never topped 100. Often there was a peak at age five or 6, but just as often those deer recovered and grew even bigger antlers later in life. The two dead head I posted in this tread are good examples of this. ( just noticed that I misplaced the antlers in the picture of the antlers in a row. The second and third set should be swapped.)

I’m not guessing his age either but he’s old. I haven’t seen him in a few months and suspect he died. I agree that he was likely never good buck, but I’m confident that 3+ years ago he had better antlers than last year and this year. Hunting there for ten years I don’t think I’ve seen a 3.5yr old with antlers that poor. He could easily be the worst, and that could be why he got old. Still, I’ve seen the occasional old deer there, and they’re usually better than him.

 

[ImBillT]

I got the results back from Matson's lab.
8 years old on this buck.View attachment 260338

I’m not 100% confident that you shot the buck that was throwing the sheds.

I’m not 100% confident that the first sheds are were from a 3.5yr old buck.

I’m not 100% confident that the dead buck is 8.5yrs old.

What I’m most confident in is that the sheds are most likely all from the same buck.

 

[seeth07]

I’m not 100% confident that you shot the buck that was throwing the sheds.

I’m not 100% confident that the first sheds are were from a 3.5yr old buck.

I’m not 100% confident that the dead buck is 8.5yrs old.

What I’m most confident in is that the sheds are most likely all from the same buck.

You know, I originally questioned the 3.5 set. I think it would be hard to say 100% it's the same buck. 4.5 thru 7.5 there are so many similarities that with very high confidence you can say it's the same buck. The final 8.5 shot buck again has some different stuff but for sure some similarities but the confidence it's the same buck would not be the same as in the prior years.

 

[antlerradar]

I do have the 100% confidence. I can hold them and I get to see them in the wild.
If you are ever down in my part of the country, give me a heads up and we will take a few hours in the antler collection.

 

[seeth07]

I do have the 100% confidence. I can hold them and I get to see them in the wild.
If you are ever down in my part of the country, give me a heads up and we will take a few hours in the antler collection.

Most that hunt whitetails in the same area for sure get a solid familiarity with the bucks. This year with the buck my wife shot however is proof that you can never be 100% confident. She got a great buck on opening day of rifle season and we thought we were positive it was a certain buck. Until 2 weeks later when the buck we thought she shot showed up on a camera. Then looking more closely it turns out it wasn't him. Come to find out, her buck came from a home range property almost 8 miles away!

 

[Irrelevant]

Speculation is killing this thread.

 

[ImBillT]

Penn State- cementum annuli only correctly aged known aged deer 85% of the time.

Penn State Deer-Forest Study

www.deer.psu.edu

Clemson University- Cementum annuli correctly aged 25% of known aged deer in Mississippi, and 16% of known aged deer in TX. Florida sent hundreds of PAIRED teeth to MATSON LABS on two separate occasions. Matson Labs only assigned the same age to both teeth in the pair 15% of the time in the first set and 22% of the time in the second set.

A Key for Aging White-Tailed Deer Using the Tooth Replacement and Wear Technique

White-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) are the most hunted and economically important game species in North America.1 Deer population management is...

lgpress.clemson.edu

Tooth wear aging is similarly inaccurate. I don’t think I have to post links to convince anyone.

Claiming that a deer without a tag in his ear peaked at “X age” is a WAG.

I’m 100% confident that individual white-tailed deer can peak at 7.5 or 8.5. That’s not the same as an average.

 

[TheTone]

Speculation is killing this thread.

One person is killing this thread.

Call me nuts but I’m going to trust a person’s observations when they’ve posted all sorts of great relevant things over the years and have actually held the antlers in their hand

 

[375H&H]

Speculation is killing this thread.

I’m not 100% sure about that…

 

[tjones]

I am 100% confident that antlerradar is 100% correct and 100% confident that there is one guy posting is 100% speculation.

 

[ImBillT]

I am 100% confident that antlerradar is 100% correct and 100% confident that there is one guy posting is 100% speculation.

Are you arguing three different game agencies having known age deer get incorrectly aged, even when aged by cementum annuli? That wasn’t speculation.

 

[gonhunting247]

Not a deer, but this old chocolate bear came back as 15 years old.

 

[tjones]

Are you arguing three different game agencies having known age deer get incorrectly aged, even when aged by cementum annuli? That wasn’t speculation.

Yes

I will go with the guy that watched the buck and actually laid hands on the sheds then killed the buck.

That over a guy looking at pics on the net.

 

[wytex]

Penn State- cementum annuli only correctly aged known aged deer 85% of the time.

Penn State Deer-Forest Study

www.deer.psu.edu

Clemson University- Cementum annuli correctly aged 25% of known aged deer in Mississippi, and 16% of known aged deer in TX. Florida sent hundreds of PAIRED teeth to MATSON LABS on two separate occasions. Matson Labs only assigned the same age to both teeth in the pair 15% of the time in the first set and 22% of the time in the second set.

A Key for Aging White-Tailed Deer Using the Tooth Replacement and Wear Technique

White-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) are the most hunted and economically important game species in North America.1 Deer population management is...

lgpress.clemson.edu

Tooth wear aging is similarly inaccurate. I don’t think I have to post links to convince anyone.

Claiming that a deer without a tag in his ear peaked at “X age” is a WAG.

I’m 100% confident that individual white-tailed deer can peak at 7.5 or 8.5. That’s not the same as an average.

Southern deer have not proven to be as able to be aged by annuli. Some think it is because of not enough extremes in their diet or conditions from winter to warmer months. Something along those lines.
I do know the lag for WG&F did some aging studies with Mon St on known aged deer and they were more accurate than MS at the time.

 

[ImBillT]

Southern deer have not proven to be as able to be aged by annuli. Some think it is because of not enough extremes in their diet or conditions from winter to warmer months. Something along those lines.
I do know the lag for WG&F did some aging studies with Mon St on known aged deer and they were more accurate than MS at the time.

I think cementum annuli is easily the best thing we have to age wild deer without tags in their ears. I only found out a few months ago that it wasn’t 99%+.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

I think cementum annuli is easily the best thing we have to age wild deer without tags in their ears. I only found out a few months ago that it wasn’t 99%+.

It's probably the most accurate, but definitely not perfect.

 

[rogerthat]

I’m not convinced you’re seeing the same deer. Maybe you are. Deer without ear tags are easily misidentified. Deer that are ear tagged peak and decline. Poor nutrition years can cause a nutrition based decline and an apparent recovery in a year with better nutrition, but that’s not an effect of age.

I’m 100% certain they are the same deer year to year. Usually there was something unique about them that made identification unmistakable. In Montana truly large old bucks are rare so no bucks to confuse them with.

 

[Deleted member 53219]

The bucks I have been fortunate to follow through their lives really never peaked. They grew incrementally every year until they basically die. Maybe the last year of their life they may go down hill but largely in my experience antler “peaking” is a myth.

I agree with this 100%. It’s real convenient for game agencies to say that deer peak right at the same age they happen to usually get shot. It’s so rare for a public land deer in a general unit in Montana to make it past 5.5-6.5 that it’s easy to say they peak in this age class and people are killing them at their peak, but all deer I’ve been able to watch get to 7.5+ have gotten bigger each year, sometimes very significantly bigger later in their life.

Also like has been discussed, it is very common for them to have a down year, right around that 5.5-6.5 year age, so if the buck gets shot on the down year, you’d assume he had “peaked” the year before, but those bucks come out of the down year typically with a big growth year and then continue to get bigger each year again. Sometimes the main frame will peak or decrease, but total antler gross score seems to increase until they die.

We are doing a lot of deer an injustice assuming they peak at 4.5-6.5. If a deer is 160-180 at 3.5-4.5 years old and gets killed, it almost makes a guy sick to think about what he might have been had he made it to 8.5.

But not all deer are like this. Deer that are going to be true giants will be “big” deer when they are young. Other deer just don’t have the genes to be true gross score giants, but they still will get bigger each year, put on some more mass, add some goofy trash, just never gross score anything real good. A big mature, old 160” is a real trophy and needs to be shot. A 160” 3.5 year old shot is a real shame.

Just my observations over the years anyway.

 

[sapperJ24]

Are you arguing three different game agencies having known age deer get incorrectly aged, even when aged by cementum annuli? That wasn’t speculation.

From Matson's website:

Does Region Of Harvest Impact Aging?​

Widespread wildlife species, such as white-tailed deer and black bears, can be aged across their ranges. However, within the northern hemisphere, northern populations are generally easier to age than southern populations. Animals from southern regions tend to have less distinct cementum annuli than their northern counterparts. Resource availability and climate conditions are more uniform across seasons in southern regions which likely contributes to the indistinction. Similarly, teeth from humans (Matson’s Laboratory does not have expertise in aging human teeth) and domestic animals display irregular cementum patterns most likely because they do not experience seasonal changes in resource availability to the same extent as most wild mammals. However, further scientific research is needed to support these claims.

Cementum Annuli Deer Aging - Matson's Laboratory

We are the leading experts in cementum annuli deer aging. Cementum analysis is scientifically proven to be the most accurate way to age teeth.

matsonslab.com

 

[sclancy27]

I think what's killing this thread is talking about whitetails....