How many times?

[HSi-ESi]

A couple of posts recently brought this thought to the forefront for me.

How many times have you heard someone say, I know there is elk in this hellhole, but you would need a fork to get it out? Or, there is no way you could get an elk out of there without it spoiling?

And then go in and get an elk and pack it out?

Maybe onX needs to provide a layer for this too?

Just interested in some of your experiences, but I have found it to be a good scouting technique.

 

[ismith]

Seems like there would be far too many variables for a layer like that. Also, if you have the roadless area layer and can read contour lines, it would be redundant.

 

[HSi-ESi]

Seems like there would be far too many variables for a layer like that. Also, if you have the roadless area layer and can read contour lines, it would be redundant.

I should have done some sarcasm font around the OnX layer thing, because I know that's silly.

I've just had a few conversations with folks and they tell me a location - but won't go in there - and they aren't lazy hunters per se - just not as desperate?

 

[Sytes]

I know a few areas of this sort though maybe I've bordered a bit on the, "Well, they've gotta be out in this one small park early sunrise/late sundown" thus pass on the rough and tumble location for the more, accessible hunting grounds. When it nears the end of my hunt opportunities and family does not hold obligations, I'll occasionally touch the dreadful steep, super heavy canopy and try to still hunt the timbered coolie or north facing wall of a bowl area. It's a bitch to work those areas however, tag soup for elk should be a hint...

 

[Phaseolus]

That is why there are elk there, because most people won’t go in there.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I've certainly heard it a lot and to be honest those are mostly the places I target. I find that typically the limiting factor is not fitness but logistics. Most people aren't willing to do the work to figure out how to hunt a place, and/or really spend some time thinking about how to get meat out.

There are also a few places that you probably just can't actually hunt in certain times of the year.

I found a big group of elk on public this year that you legitimately cannot hunt unless you have horses and even then it's tough to the point of being impossible. Essentially 7 miles one way from the nearest place you are allowed to camp (so 14 miles round trip each day to get to the elk), you can't camp at the kill site obviously, can't be on the land more than 1hr before or after sunset unless you are packing meat (so there is no way you can legally hunt the bulls during the golden hour), there are no trees or streams so you can't hang meat. It's illegal to use aircraft of any kind.

Someone could probably make the hunt work during October, when it's cold at night, but before the snow flies.

 

[ismith]

I should have done some sarcasm font around the OnX layer thing, because I know that's silly.

I've just had a few conversations with folks and they tell me a location - but won't go in there - and they aren't lazy hunters per se - just not as desperate?

Well, the way I look at it, hellhole=honeyhole. I’ve had friends call me crazy, but for me it has worked out pretty well.

 

[Irrelevant]

I guess I'm one of those guys. I've seen elk in places that I just won't hunt. There's no way with the resources I have available that I can extract one, maybe with ideal weather and plenty of days off ahead of me, but those two things almost never align. I just feel like I've packed enough shit to know what I'm actually capable of. This summer I extended by deer hunt into the questionable range for extraction. I made sure I did not do that on my elk hunt. I think if guys have a bunch of people they can call on, or friends with pack animals, or just TIME then yeah hunt the shit out of those hellholes. But in doing so comes the responsibility to care for that meat.

 

[Gr8bawana]

I shot one of my cow elk in what some would call a hell-hole during a late season January hunt. It was cold and snowy and most other hunters we talked to had seen nothing, but they were just driving the roads.
We walked in a mile or two past the wilderness boundary sign so there was no road. The place was full of elk but it was also very very thick with pinion, juniper and mahogany making walking very difficult. Since it was so cold we could have taken as many days as we wanted to pack it out.
Those places nobody wants to hunt are usually the place to hunt.

 

[OverlordBear]

My problem is when I go into the hell holes the brush is so thick I can’t see the animals to even get a shot. Today I was within 25 yards of a cow elk inside an alder and pine forest hell hole. I could hear her and her calf breathing but had no shot. I think I might need to start tree stand hunting these hell holes and maybe shoot one from above.

 

[Elk247]

I think alot of first time elk hunters don't know what an actual hellhole is until they see one in person. Onx is a great tool for scouting but doesn't compare to actually seeing the county you intend to hunt.

If you go in you better be prepared physically and mentally or have lots of help.

I had one of those packouts this year. After watching one of Randy's episodes I made sure I got in the best shape I could and I'm sure glad I did. A long 5-6 mile down hill packout is nothing compared to a shorter few mile packout from a hellhole I can vouch for that.

 

[Big Fin]

I agree with all that has been said. I've done it in the past and I would say my "maturity" has tempered by "Shoot now, worry about extraction later" tendencies.

There are places where public land bulls accumulate after the first surge of hunting pressure that are far from roads or have such topography that a smart guy doesn't even glass those locations. Have access to pack animals, tons of time and enthusiasm, or hunt in other places. Since I still want to hunt these kind of places and I have the time, though lack the enthusiasm, it comes down to pack animals for me; llamas.

This week we spent three days hunting a highly pressured unit in Montana; me, Beau Baty (llama guy), Matt Seidel from onX, Corey Jacobsen, and Donnie Drake. Each day was 10-13 mile loops into some really ugly places. Up early and back to camp 3+ hours after the end of shooting light. Just where the elk are in Montana general units by the second week of season.

Day One we saw 15 bulls. Beau shot an elk, the best elk we saw on the hunt. Thank God for his llamas. The next morning he and the llamas were on the trail to where we had left his bull hanging in the trees the night before.

Day Two, Matt shot a bull out of a herd of ten bulls. It was lounging on sunny Wednesday aftennoon in a place that looked less nasty on the satellite maps than it did when climbing around in there. I suspect the bull and his bachelor group had been undisturbed since opening weekend, having found a place that hunters didn't want to go. The bulls were up and feeding when spotted at noon, a sign of elk that haven't been pushed too hard. Matt and Marcus got back to our camp at 8:30 that night, smiling and completely spent. Llamas to the rescue the following day.

On that Day Three retrieval I shot an elk over two miles from where Matt's bull was hanging, giving the llamas two elk to haul out that day. Again, this group of eight bulls were up and moving at noon. It took 2.5 hours to get above them and in position to shoot the biggest of the five-points in that group. When we got back to camp, we found out Donnie had also shot an elk that day. To retrieve his bull, the llamas would be employed the following morning before we broke camp and headed out the next afternoon.

Point being, at my age and infirmity, there is no way we would shoot four bulls in three days, as far away from roads as we did, if not having access to pack animals. Just not something I am interested in doing (lack of enthusiasm). And as someone mentioned above, in warm weather this location could present serious issues with meat spoilage.

There were a lot of other hunters around the periphery of this area, though not where the bulls were stacked. I suspect some of them scaled the divide as we did. Like I would have done if not having access to pack animals, I suspect most looked down in there and quickly realized what a backpack extraction would require; many heavy trips to climb out of that basin. Without pack animals, I know I would have turned back at the crest of that divide and hoped for a situation that provided a less intimidating extraction, knowing full well my odds of punching a tag would be less.

I know guys, some on this site, who are absolute beasts and can do those nasty extractions without any hesitation. I admire the hell out of them and shake my head at the level of commitment they have to tagging elk on highly pressured public lands. Their relentless determination, a huge factor in their consistent success, makes them far more the minority than the majority, as evidenced by the scarcity of boot tracks in these elk sanctuary areas.

So, to the question in this thread title, "How many times?" For me, the answer is, "Enough to know better." I'll still hunt these locations so long as my knees allow and so long as Beau continues renting llamas.

 

[elkduds]

 

[Nunyacreek]

I vacillate between dreaming of areas where no one hunts because it’s too difficult and thinking why don’t I go hunt where everyone else is, after all there must be something there. BigFin did a great job explaining logistics, these places are all about logistics. This year I spent opening day packing stock into a drainage that looked pretty easy to get in to. It was not. We crossed a relatively low pass on the trip in and the snow was mid-thigh..absolutely brutal conditions for us and for the animals we were leading.
We got into the spot to find 12 inches of snow, nearly no huntable (glassante) ground and used up 75 pounds of feed that night and the next morning. We came to the conclusion that unless you wanted to spend all your time and energy packing horse feed over the pass the spot was not worth it.
We packed up and came out, but I have no regrets. For years I’ve stared at google earth and wished i could get there, tried several different routes and been stymied every time. Now this spot will live in my dreams, just as pristine and inviting as I always imagined it. Twenty years ago I might have persisted, waited for an open winter, toughed it out, but i guess I’m not that tough anymore. It took me twenty years to get there and I just appreciate the fact that there are such places still. So when I hear people talk about such places sometimes i check them out and sometimes I just smile knowingly and think, yeah, I know a few spots like that too. And I’ll continue dreaming of some Shangri-La where there are big bulls and 30” mile deer that is just tough enough to keep everyone but me from hunting...

 

[commando668]

This is a typical tree stand issue, when you are up there with a hot cup of coffee, a good rifle and scope then you can almost see it all.

 

[kmott]

I guess I'm one of those guys. I've seen elk in places that I just won't hunt. There's no way with the resources I have available that I can extract one, maybe with ideal weather and plenty of days off ahead of me, but those two things almost never align. I just feel like I've packed enough shit to know what I'm actually capable of. This summer I extended by deer hunt into the questionable range for extraction. I made sure I did not do that on my elk hunt. I think if guys have a bunch of people they can call on, or friends with pack animals, or just TIME then yeah hunt the shit out of those hellholes. But in doing so comes the responsibility to care for that meat.

nothing wrong with knowing your limitations. in fact, it is commendable. when I was young and dumb I hunted the hellholes and I wouldn't trade those experiences . now I am getting old and the body is breaking down and I must hunt smarter not harder . tend to go more for meat then bone these days.

 

[Firedude]

I know a couple such places. Some of them aren't big. 1 in particular comes to mind. A friend of mine is new to the area. He asked where he could find some elk. I told him to "Go over that ridge, skirt the trees, DON'T KILL AN ELK IN THERE, go over the next ridge, and hunt there." What does he do? Arrows a bull where I told him not to. He comes and gets me and says he needs help.... Let me just describe this spot. Dead fall waiste high to chest high. As trees fell it blocked the creek making marsh. Marsh doesn't hold trees. More trees fell. Over and over. It's early September. That thing ran straight downhill and died in the center of a 300 yard wide swamp in dead fall waiste high. The whole bottom of the draw is private with a stern ''NO'' for access. 4 days of knee deep mud, handing and throwing packs of meat over logs, slogging over the next one and starting over only to be followed by a 1/4 mile uphill climb in the Idaho mountains. Then about 1 1/2 miles of ridge walking soaked and muddy to the road. I'm guessing we lost 50 pounds of meat. Most of what we got out wasn't exactly delicious...