Heads up to Bird Dog folks regarding snake avoidance training

[onpoint]

Thought bird dog people might take note of this:

My 15 month old Grif girl recently went through E-Collar snake avoidance training. Soon after the "ordeal", both her eye whites filled with blood and became very swollen. Took her to the vet and he figured the "shock" burst blood vessels in her eyes. The pressure in her eyes tested OK and she was given a course of steroidal drops to reduce the edema and lubricate until she heals up, which the vet was fairly confident would happen.
I know of many who have put their pups through this "training" to adversely condition their friends to snakes and have never heard of this before. Unfortunately for my girl, I've heard of it now.....
While I still cautiously think "snake breaking", is a worthwhile deal, I'm not %100 sure I'll put another dog through it, given this circumstance.
Not much fun seeing your pups eyes full of pooled blood - little scary when you invest some much time, effort, love into these little turds and depend on them as your hunting partner.

More just a word of precaution and a consideration for those who choose to do this - not a complaint about the procedure or those who provide it. If her eyes are fine and the training leads to her avoiding snakes - I think it will still be worth it.

She's got three weeks to heal up until Sept. 1st

 

[Hunts]

Had my one year old go through training last night. Easy to criticize but it seemed like the e-collar level could have been set a bit lower. I watched 20 dogs go through it and every one of them was literally "flying" during the correction. I won't do it like that again. A few years ago I had 2 setters go through porky training and the reactions were no way near as severe. Glad my girl is o.k. Not sure if the vaccine is worth doing at all. My vet says it isn't.

 

[Hunts]

onpoint,

Was the training you're talking about down in Three Forks?

 

[onpoint]

onpoint,

Was the training you're talking about down in Three Forks?

Yup. Sent a communication to the folks who put it on with my concerns.

Regarding the vaccine, a local vet who has since retired summed it up the best for me. She said she sold the vaccine, will gladly vaccinate my dog if I want, but she had never seen any evidence that it worked or did not. The only way to really test is to introduce dogs to the venom and run clinical trials on those dogs versus a non-invenomated(sp?) control group. Never happen because no company would get away with the actual trial(s). I trust a vet/businesswoman who foregoes the almighty dollar by not trying to sell a vaccine to clients......

Thanks for the input.

 

[Brad NSW]

Our dog had the snake vacine. 6 months later a baby rattler latched onto her lip. Vet is a good friend. He took a blood test an hour aftermthe bite and showed us the venim cells, so she was invenomated pretty good.

Next morning she was totally back to normal.

Vet said anti-venom would have cost $2400. Vacine was $50 for first shot and $25 each year. Seems like a good investment, especially since I've killed 9 rattlers in our yard in the last 8 years.

 

[angels2011]

Good to hear, I had mine pup vaccinated. Hope to never find out if it helps or not. She found a bull snake this summer and I did a little collar training at a medium setting that hopefully will help as well.
I hope to keep her on Blues and Ruffs until most of the snakes go to den but probably won't be able to.

Good hunting (for birds, not snakes) to all this year.

 

[Crumb]

Man am i glad we don't have rattlers in Minnesota!

 

[teej89]

That's intense about the e-collar... is she weary wearing one now? or don't you use it? Sounds like way too much pressure was used, we use e-collars but never would I go that high.

 

[mrasm282]

Man am i glad we don't have rattlers in Minnesota!

Crumb, hate to break it to you, but there are rattlesnakes in SE Mn. I hunt across the river in WI, and have a couple spots I won't hunt until Mid October because there are a bunch there. Thankfully, I have a bunch of other spots.

 

[Rat Fink]

That's why I prefer the snake whip method of training vs using an e-collar. Only problem is getting the dead rattlesnake to beat the dog with it.

 

[Gellar]

Crumb, hate to break it to you, but there are rattlesnakes in SE Mn. I hunt across the river in WI, and have a couple spots I won't hunt until Mid October because there are a bunch there. Thankfully, I have a bunch of other spots.

We have timber rattlers in the driftless area of northeast Iowa, southeast Minnesota, southwest Wisconsin and northeast Illinois. Timber rattlers are very docile compared to diamond backs. Western Iowa has prairie rattle snakes so I would assume Minnesota has those as well.

 

[pointingdogsrule]

Interesting, as A DVM and a person who uses the e-collar. Why so high of a stimulation???? I've always used the least amount as possible and it has worked with success. Is there something different about using the e-collar when training for rattlesnakes??

good luck to all
the dog

 

[bob-mt]

took my 2 griffs to the one on springdale road......never again. if it wasn't for the fact that i took them there,if you saw what they did and how much juice they gave the dogs,you would be inclined to kick their a$$. my dogs have the shots,there are rattle snakes on my property. my 2 year old got bit the same day i took them in. go figure. she came out fine,took about a day and a half. i believe in the shots,snake training not so much. the vets i use believe in the shots and they are bird hunters......bob

 

[.280 Remington]

I've put several of my own dogs through the training and have never had a problem. Nor have I heard of anyone having a problem.

I also vaccinate.

IMO, do as much as you can. And the training does work, I've seen it in action out in the field.

As far as those who say it is too harsh, well...it's just like spanking a child. It is done for their future good, not yours or theirs in the immediate.

 

[bob-mt]

big difference between spanking a child and beating the hell out of it. the way they started the process the dogs were all ready on the fight.....bob

 

[onpoint]

She's healed up, eye whites are white again. She took prize classification I at the NAHVDA NA test (pretty cool but really not a big deal to me) and she'll be on Blue Grouse in 11 days. Now comes barbed wire, prickly pear, hawthorn, rock cliffs, etc. My vet(s) love me.
Like others have said, never heard of this injury before - but I have now. You tend to get a "heads up" about things by their happening, not usually by them never happening.....

 

[.280 Remington]

big difference between spanking a child and beating the hell out of it. the way they started the process the dogs were all ready on the fight.....bob

You have to shock them enough to make an impression. I don't know a single dog trainer who recommends against it. In fact, all of them recommend it. For porcupines, skunks, or whatever.

One of my younger dogs jumped right on the snake when he went through it. I'm damn glad he did it at the breaking clinic and not out in the field.

The vaccine is not developed for snake species in MT. My vets say to get it, but don't count on it working. I'll take all the help I can get in the snake department.

 

[bob-mt]

280
i agree you have to get their attention. my dogs run shock collars that is how i broke them from deer, sometimes they have to be reminded. i will hit them hard if need be, but not for a long period of time. i mainly have them for the call back beeper. side note, got a call from my neighbor around noon today, she was out with her horses and her dog got bit on my side of the fence. he has no shots,will see how it turns out.

onpoint.....glad your dog is ok..........280 ...have a good season........in my area the snakes seem thick this year, more rabbits than i can remember. bob