H.R. 8828 introduced -Leghold and conibear traps

[BWALKER77]

I've let several of your comments about controlling your dog go, but it is obvious you know very little about bird dogs, especially pointing dogs. Any decent pointing dog will routinely, in open country, be hundreds of yards from its handler. It is common for two dogs to be hunting independently from each other at the same time.

It is not uncommon for one of them to be a few hundred yards away on your left side and the other a similar distance on the right. They are not always in sight, nor should they be. If there are snares around it would be very easy for it to take too long to get to the dog in time to save it.

I am by no means anti- trapping but if I determined your attitude accurately reflected trappers' attitude concerning catching dogs in snares,,,,,,I could certainly change my mind.

Any pointing dog that's "hundreds" of yards away is poorly trained.
And I've hunted over pointing dogs plenty.

 

[BWALKER77]

Everyone talking about snares and bird dogs and questionioning the trappers common knowledge of bird dogs; I have a question?? Are most bird dogs at some point broke to lead and heal on a leash? Where I’m going with this is, unless you’re bird hunting with an un broke dog, or someplace where ram snares are legal, which isn’t too many places in the lower 48, snares and dogs shouldn’t be that big a deal. Footholds and dogs....again, not that big a deal. They get caught, they yelp, you release them, they go on bird hunting a little more trap wise. The talk of dogs getting in drowner sets for beaver is pretty far fetched. Dry land bodygrips are an extreme danger to dogs. Those sets have their place, but a trapper had better use extreme caution when making those sets, because there’s no second chances.
MtMuley has the right idea. It’s not about taking away from one sport for the benefit of the other. I’m not silencer, AR, high cap mag kinda guy, but I darn sure don’t support regulations that try to take them away from those that do. A united front of sportsman is the only chance we have at continuing the freedoms we all enjoy in our own individual ways.

This..

 

[BWALKER77]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about this. I really enjoy trapping (have some bobcat, marten, and wolf sets out right now) , but I also have had my lab almost killed by an illegal snare and encounter lots of illegal and potentially dangerous sets almost every year.

There is a guy around here that has been putting out snares for wolves and lions for years. Some are very near trails near homes and trails that get used by hikers and dog walkers often during the winter. Iv'e been trying to help the warden catch the guy for a handful of years now, but doesn't seem to be a priority of his.

Pretty sure its the same guy that almost killed my dog with a snare awhile back. My lab kept pretty close to me, but did like to bust around in the brush a bit too. As I was hiking along I noticed I hadn't seen or heard him for about a minute. He didn't respond to my calling so I went back and found where he had last left the trail. I found him choking to death in a snare about 10 feet off the trail in a thick patch of little grand firs. It was a non relaxing snare and if I hadn't had a leatherman and some heavy duty wire cutters in my pocket, he would be dead. Still not sure how I cut through it, but adrenaline is a powerful thing. I thought I was going to have to do CPR on him after I cut him loose, but after a second he started to catch his breath and was able to stand up after a few minutes.

If I wasn't a trapper and wanted to help the warden try to catch the guy, I would have told that story to the news and it would be another case of a trapper doing something stupid (and illegal) putting another nail in the coffin of public land trapping. I have met some good and ethical trappers, but there are a bunch that think they can do whatever they want and don't give a #&%$ about laws or anyone else. The warden found a big male lion with snare marks around its neck shoved under a cutbank a few dozen yards from the series of snares that my dog got into.

I found a few more illegally set snares this winter and before the warden could get here to have a look at them, one caught another nice lion. Lion tags are tough to draw around here and it pisses me off that this guy is killing these cats and tossing them in the bushes. The lion hung off that log for 3 weeks before the warden decided to go get it since it didn't seem like the guy was coming back.
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If trappers are careful about where and how they set their connibears and snares (and only legal sets), its pretty easy to avoid catching pets. Unfortunately, there are a decent amount of guys that can't seem to do that. If no pets get caught and traps are in smart locations, no one would ever know they are there and most people wouldn't ever think about trapping.

So we should regulate everything based on a small number of law breakers?
Think of the effects this would have on hunting.

 

[theat]

@theat, I appreciate your thought and comments, but could you please remove those lion pics. Those aren’t going to do anyone any good if the wrong person is lurking in here

Nope...lucky I don't tell the whole story to the local paper and new station. I can't seem to get FWP to take what this guy is doing seriously. It took 10 days and many phone calls including to the warden captain to get someone to come over and investigate. If they continue to not take it seriously, I might still do that. If you can't tell...I'm pretty pissed about dealing with this for over 8 years. I am almost past the point of caring if it contributes to loosing my trapping rights. If other trappers (who know that they are under a microscope) can't follow game laws, they are the ones putting trapping in jeopardy, not me.

 

[mtmuley]

Nope...lucky I don't tell the whole story to the local paper and new station. I can't seem to get FWP to take what this guy is doing seriously. It took 10 days and many phone calls including to the warden captain to get someone to come over and investigate. If they continue to not take it seriously, I might still do that. If you can't tell...I'm pretty pissed about dealing with this for over 8 years. I am almost past the point of caring if it contributes to loosing my trapping rights. If other trappers (who know that they are under a microscope) can't follow game laws, they are the ones putting trapping in jeopardy, not me.

theat, I understand what you are experiencing. But the actions of a poacher can't dictate the way yourself and guys like brockel operate. Not a fair comparison and you shouldn't have to pay the price. mtmuley

 

[Outlaw99]

Nope...lucky I don't tell the whole story to the local paper and new station. I can't seem to get FWP to take what this guy is doing seriously. It took 10 days and many phone calls including to the warden captain to get someone to come over and investigate. If they continue to not take it seriously, I might still do that. If you can't tell...I'm pretty pissed about dealing with this for over 8 years. I am almost past the point of caring if it contributes to loosing my trapping rights. If other trappers (who know that they are under a microscope) can't follow game laws, they are the ones putting trapping in jeopardy, not me.

That’s great, and I don’t blame you for your emotion, but that picture is tasteless, accomplishes nothing for Hunt Talk, and doesn’t belong on a public Internet forum. The title of this thread is “Foothold/Conibear Trap Ban”........ no mention of snares, nor is it titled “ Post Up Your Dead Lion Pics!”

 

[theat]

So we should regulate everything based on a small number of law breakers?
Think of the effects this would have on hunting.

Did I say that anywhere in what you quoted?

If you would read it with an open mind you might get the point I was making. Trappers doing dumb and illegal things is what get trapping put into a negative light. If trappers would be careful and conscientious, most americans wouldn't even know its going on let alone vote against it.

 

[brockel]

Did I say that anywhere in what you quoted?

If you would read it with an open mind you might get the point I was making. Trappers doing dumb and illegal things is what get trapping put into a negative light. If trappers would be careful and conscientious, most americans wouldn't even know its going on let alone vote against it.

The guy doing that is not a trapper. Just as someone shooting a deer out of season isn’t a hunter

 

[406dn]

Any pointing dog that's "hundreds" of yards away is poorly trained.
And I've hunted over pointing dogs plenty.

I'm sorry you are ignorant on this issue. I have owned pointing dogs for many years. I've competed in horseback field trials with them for many years. My dogs have won many times, including amateur and professional championships. A dog has to be very well trained to succeed in field trials.

As I posted earlier, in open country, a good pointing dog is going to spend much of its time hundreds of yards away from its handler. They are not running off, they are hunting.

Here is a shot from a time when I had two dogs on the ground at the same time. They happened to each find birds a good distance away from each other. They were likely about 400 yards away from me when they found their birds.


Quit trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

 

[Shangobango]

Large conabear traps (body grip traps) set at ground level easily trap a dog and crush its windpipe. There have been attempts to limit their use to underwater and elevated above waist level only, but this is sporadically the case so folks want them banned - not all trapping just this particularly dangerous type.

First of all, define large.

I have been setting dry conibears for 25 years, sometimes very extensively ( i.e. over a hundred of these sets out at a time) and have yet to catch a dog, domestic cat, or any other pet.

How about trapper education instead of banning what is a very effective and very safe tool when used appropriately?

 

[Ben Lamb]

How about trapper education instead of banning what is a very effective and very safe tool when used appropriately?

Very much this. Add hunter education as well. Hunters need to know how to avoid traps & how to release dogs. It has to cut both ways.

 

[Sytes]

I took the MT FWP Trapper Education course a few years ago and it was extremely informative. I've not run traps as it does not work for my free time frame to check - even combined with others for the part time recreational aspect. However, the information gained from the course was very valuable. It clears the air on many *impressions people may have due to the anti trapping agendas of environmental organizations - supported by print and media propelling the spin.

 

[88man]

I have trapped a little but I am a son of a trapper and many of my dads friends were/are serious trappers and they would rather trap than hunt or fish. I have hunted with chase dogs and flushing and pointing dogs for all kinds of game and birds and owned such also. I belong to hunting clubs and am an active member and sit on boards/committees and hold officer positions and attend basically all social events. I HAVE NEVER MET or first hand heard of ANYONE WHO LOST A DOG TO A TRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BUT on huntalk we have hunters talking like this is or could be a very common thing. BULL CRAP!

 

[VikingsGuy]

BUT on huntalk we have hunters talking like this is or could be a very common thing. BULL CRAP!

Why is one person's personal experience (by definition a limited experience) the truth and a second person's personal experience (also by defintion a limited experience) bull crap? That is completely irrational on this or any other topic, and frankly is exactly the type of self-centered, self-important perspective on the world that is part of why we seemingly can't have rational discussions anymore.

I respect that your experiences are relevant to the discussion and that they understandably inform you opinion, but unless you extend the same for others, then your contributions to any discusssion are worthless in any civil sense of the concept of a discussion.

 

[Shangobango]

BUT on huntalk we have hunters talking like this is or could be a very common thing. BULL CRAP!

I am not going to call bull but would like to know how many dogs have been killed or seriously injured by a conibear or any other trap or snare in the U.S in the last decade.

The one is too many argument doesn’t go very far with me. Accidents happen in every conceivable activity from time to time.

 

[Shangobango]

Plenty of ways to trap. All of life is compromises and balancing of competing interests.

Absolutely true.

To be fair there are plenty of ways to hunt besides using dogs as well.

Sitting in my hang on now. Had a couple of squirell hunters with dogs come through and shoot several times within 200 yards of me earlier. I don’t want to ban squirell hunting during archery season because of the off chance I catch a pellet in the eye.

 

[wytex]

I have trapped a little but I am a son of a trapper and many of my dads friends were/are serious trappers and they would rather trap than hunt or fish. I have hunted with chase dogs and flushing and pointing dogs for all kinds of game and birds and owned such also. I belong to hunting clubs and am an active member and sit on boards/committees and hold officer positions and attend basically all social events. I HAVE NEVER MET or first hand heard of ANYONE WHO LOST A DOG TO A TRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BUT on huntalk we have hunters talking like this is or could be a very common thing. BULL CRAP!

Glad you haven't but I do know someone and yes I trap also. Not common at all but it does happen. Released a few domestic cats from traps too. A trapped dog is pretty easy prey for say a coyote.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I am not going to call bull but would like to know how many dogs have been killed or seriously injured by a conibear or any other trap or snare in the U.S in the last decade.

Fair question. I don't have the stats for the nation - and as I said this really strikes me as a state issue, as the geography and land uses differ across the country. But I can point out that there has been sworn testimony in the state of MN of over 30 dog deaths by body-grip traps in the last 8 years since the MN trapper assoc. agreed to some minor tweaks to the rules in fall of 2013. I assume (but that is just an assumption) that there is also likely to be unreported deaths, and a multiple of those deaths more in bad events that thankfully fell short of death.

 

[mtmuley]

I dislike the "ban" word VG. I know you dismiss the slippery slope theory, but I don't. Where I live, there is a movement to ban all trapping. I don't trap, nor bird hunt with dogs. Once the ball is rolling, it's hard to stop. mtmuley

 

[Shangobango]

Fair question. I don't have the stats for the nation - and as I said this really strikes me as a state issue, as the geography and land uses differ across the country. But I can point out that there has been sworn testimony in the state of MN of over 30 dog deaths by body-grip traps in the last 8 years since the MN trapper assoc. agreed to some minor tweaks to the rules in fall of 2013. I assume (but that is just an assumption) that there is also likely to be unreported deaths, and a multiple of those deaths more in bad events that thankfully fell short of death.

Wow 30 is higher than I would have guessed. That really stinks. I am pretty sure there are instances that go unreported.

I remember way back when I was a kid my dog came up missing for a few days. My grandpa commented that he may have got caught in a trap. Sure enough when he showed back up he had a sore paw with what looked like a jaw mark on it from a foothold.

I agree that it should be a State issue. There are so many variables from place to place.

Is this mainly a problem with hunting dogs. Maybe you all could allow the trappers a timeframe during prime fur time to use bodygrips and not have hunting dogs out and about? Just spitballing...