Google Bot Data Mined Super-Fund Site

[BuzzH]

Politely, it just sounds like unlimited sheep hunts aren’t for you. And they certainly aren’t for everyone.

Some solutions to the issues you pointed out though:

If we don’t want 4.5 year old rams getting whacked then change it to 7/8 curl instead of 3/4 curl.

Wyoming’s wilderness guide rule is stupid and needs to be eliminated regardless of unlimited sheep hunts.

Don’t hunt 300 or 301 if you want solitude on an unlimited sheep hunt.

Politely, still a couple potential problems...there are 8-9+ year old rams in WY that would never be legal under 7/8 including the 9.5 year old ram I killed.

I don't see the Wilderness guide law changing or an unlimited sheep hunt here either.

Can't hunt 301 unlimited anymore so that problem is solved.

Hunt quality would always be a concern in Wyoming and people waiting 20-25 years to hunt what would turn into unlimited area (likely unit 1) probably wouldn't be easily convinced.

IMO, your efforts are better spent keeping them in Montana rather than trying to expand them in States that don't want them.

 

[winmag]

I guess next time I won’t bother being polite.

7/8 curl, double broomed, or 8 years old then.

 

[BuzzH]

Solution for the wilderness guide law?

Probably be smart to get the horse in front of the cart...again, my opinion.

Another thing to consider is that WY's sheep populations in units 1-5 have been on a steady decline for 10 years or more...since I started applying in 1999 tags have been cut nearly in half statewide.

That's going to be a pretty big hurdle to jump in an unlimited push...

 

[BigHornRam]

I would never advocate for an unlimited hunt in Wyoming for sheep.

I would rather see the current management system stay in place where a sheep hunter that draws doesn't have to fall victim to a short, compressed seasons where people are killing barely legal rams.

I'd much rather see sheep hunters get to enjoy a reasonable season length and be able to look over a lot more rams. That gives hunters the opportunity to select rams over 8 years old, rather than pound on 4-5 year old barely legal sheep. Much better for herd health and much better trophy quality.

One of the best parts of my Wyoming sheep hunt was the ability to spread the season out over a couple months with no pressure to kill the first legal ram I saw. The late part of my hunt was pretty awesome, very few hunters with a tag left and new rams that moved out of the park...rams that would never be hunted in an early unlimited deal. Quality of a sheep hunt matters, and my experience in the MT unlimited units I hunted (2 of them 300 and 301) wasn't near the quality of my WY hunt.

The other issue with an unlimited season in Wyoming is the wilderness guide law...NR's would be forced to use a guide or hunt with a resident which would mean a $10-11K unlimited sheep hunt.

I agree that carving out an unlimited area adjacent to the park would be a hard to no sell. What about marginal high elevation, early migration areas in in the winds? Any potential there?

 

[Labman]

I guess next time I won’t bother being polite.

7/8 curl, double broomed, or 8 years old then.

That’s what MT should have in place now in the unlimited sheep units.

 

[BuzzH]

I agree that carving out an unlimited area adjacent to the park would be a hard to no sell. What about marginal high elevation, early migration areas in in the winds? Any potential there?

That may be a possibility, but IME, the best hunting for sheep would be on the Reservation side of the winds...and I don't think they would be open to the idea at all.

I didn't see many sheep when I worked the remote sections of the Winds on the Reservation side, but the ones I saw were pretty awesome rams (old, heavy, and broomed). Saw about 90% of them from the air in a helicopter.

No doubt that country is where it would make sense. Very few trails and a longggg way in there. The elk hunting would be something special as well, saw some really nice bulls in there working. The fishing in there would be world class as well...some of the best remote country I've ever worked or spent time in the lower 48. Unbelievably beautiful and I got paid to work there...in September.

 

[TheTone]

Idaho removed its curl requirements a few years ago. From what I remember it was largely based on most rams killed being well over the requirements but also rams being seen that were old but not legal length. I think if Idaho did an unlimited hunt with no curl requirements it would be bad! I’d fully expect people to blast ewe’s with no idea what they were doing

A friend of mine was considering shooting a yearling a few years ago on his sheep tag as he was really struggling to find rams. Luckily he found a good adult ram a day or two later

 

[Lilhowie83]

Idaho removed its curl requirements a few years ago. From what I remember it was largely based on most rams killed being well over the requirements but also rams being seen that were old but not legal length. I think if Idaho did an unlimited hunt with no curl requirements it would be bad! I’d fully expect people to blast ewe’s with no idea what they were doing

A friend of mine was considering shooting a yearling a few years ago on his sheep tag as he was really struggling to find rams. Luckily he found a good adult ram a day or two later

I agree, if they did some type of unlimited unit in Idaho, they would have to do some curl requirement.

 

[Bluffgruff]

I would just slap an age requirement on places where concerns of over harvest exist, or where large populations of sheep live. That gives you new legal sheep every year regardless of genetics.

 

[shines@times]

Idaho removed its curl requirements a few years ago. From what I remember it was largely based on most rams killed being well over the requirements but also rams being seen that were old but not legal length. I think if Idaho did an unlimited hunt with no curl requirements it would be bad! I’d fully expect people to blast ewe’s with no idea what they were doing

A friend of mine was considering shooting a yearling a few years ago on his sheep tag as he was really struggling to find rams. Luckily he found a good adult ram a day or two later

We are talking sheep here; I think it is easy enough to distinguish ram from ewe that a simple "any ram" restriction would be adequate in an area where old rams don't produce much horn length.*

If the country and access to it are tough enough, I think that factor in itself eliminates the type of hunter who wouldn't know a ram from a ewe even if he was staring at its scrotum.

* As I understood it in the 1980's, part of the original motivation for Montana's unlimited permit hunts was to give hunters a crack at rams that were Yellowstone Park residents much of the year and only migrated into the Absaroka Beartooth country for the rut or when pushed by severe winter weather. I seem to recall a conversation with a biologist back then that explained the smaller horn dimensions of the typical UL unit kill not so much as indiscriminate hunters, but rather as a simple fact of the region. He said that both the genetics (rams tending to less-massive horns and tighter curls) and the severe habitat, which meant the average ram did not live to see ten years, were the more limiting factors that would prevent hunters was taking B&C animals in the region.

I do know that efforts to introduce genetic improvements were undertaken. Whether such efforts continue today, I cannot say. In fact, I believe the biologist might actually have let something slip when we were discussing a report of an unusually long-horned ram--it was so long ago that I can no longer recall if it was the report of a kill or a picked-up skull--and he said: "It might have been one of those Augusta rams." (Game departments don't always tell the public what they are up to.)

 

[mevertsen]

We are talking sheep here; I think it is easy enough to distinguish ram from ewe that a simple "any ram" restriction would be adequate in an area where old rams don't produce much horn length.*

If the country and access to it are tough enough, I think that factor in itself eliminates the type of hunter who wouldn't know a ram from a ewe even if he was staring at its scrotum.

* As I understood it in the 1980's, part of the original motivation for Montana's unlimited permit hunts was to give hunters a crack at rams that were Yellowstone Park residents much of the year and only migrated into the Absaroka Beartooth country for the rut or when pushed by severe winter weather. I seem to recall a conversation with a biologist back then that explained the smaller horn dimensions of the typical UL unit kill not so much as indiscriminate hunters, but rather as a simple fact of the region. He said that both the genetics (rams tending to less-massive horns and tighter curls) and the severe habitat, which meant the average ram did not live to see ten years, were the more limiting factors that would prevent hunters was taking B&C animals in the region.

I do know that efforts to introduce genetic improvements were undertaking. Whether such efforts continue today, I cannot say. In fact, I believe the biologist might actually have let something slip when we were discussing a report of an unusually long-horned ram--it was so long ago that I can no longer recall if it was the report of a kill or a picked-up skull--and he said: "It might have been one of those Augusta rams." (Game departments don't always tell the public what they are up to.)

Same issues in a lot of Nevada units. We are an any ram state.

A lot of the units simply don't produce what was once required to be a legal ram.

Genetics, water, habitat, all seem to ay a role.

 

[YoungGun]

I would never advocate for an unlimited hunt in Wyoming for sheep.

I would rather see the current management system stay in place where a sheep hunter that draws doesn't have to fall victim to a short, compressed seasons where people are killing barely legal rams.

I'd much rather see sheep hunters get to enjoy a reasonable season length and be able to look over a lot more rams. That gives hunters the opportunity to select rams over 8 years old, rather than pound on 4-5 year old barely legal sheep. Much better for herd health and much better trophy quality.

One of the best parts of my Wyoming sheep hunt was the ability to spread the season out over a couple months with no pressure to kill the first legal ram I saw. The late part of my hunt was pretty awesome, very few hunters with a tag left and new rams that moved out of the park...rams that would never be hunted in an early unlimited deal. Quality of a sheep hunt matters, and my experience in the MT unlimited units I hunted (2 of them 300 and 301) wasn't near the quality of my WY hunt.

The other issue with an unlimited season in Wyoming is the wilderness guide law...NR's would be forced to use a guide or hunt with a resident which would mean a $10-11K unlimited sheep hunt.

I don't think it needs to be pushed on every state that offers sheep hunts. I do think it should be considered when feasible and when the limited entry hunts aren't living up to the "as advertised". You've outlined the mindset of the vast majority of those that draw a sheep tag- they should have ample opportunity at killing a "trophy" ram. I'm by no means advocating against that. In fact, quite the opposite. 302 for example has some great trophy ram potential, and those that draw it expect to kill a mature ram, not just have an opportunity to do so. But as it currently stands, there are numerous years where the success rate is 66% (4/6) or so due to how the season is structured and when the sheep migrate to lower, more accessible country (It closes October 31st instead of the last Sunday of November like most other hunts). What I would advocate for in this case, is that you reduce the LE tags to 4 from 6, but have the season run through the end of the general season. I would then allocate the other 2 tags, or even 1 tag, to a UL hunt in the backcountry portion of the unit where no one is currently killing sheep anyway. This is just one unit, which has its own issues. My idea wouldn't work in every unit, or even most, but it could work here to both create more "opportunity" as well as to improve the LE hunters opportunity, success, and trophy potential. I think there are creative solutions that can do this across different states, Wyoming or not.

As to the age of the unlimited rams, or being "barely legal"- this will always come down to a hunters choice. I've had coworkers shoot a "legal" 150" ram in the same unit Greenhorn is hunting this year- that unit can produce 170+" rams. But it was that hunters choice. Meanwhile, hunters like Gomer and many others, have held out for the "right" ram in the Unlimiteds.

I am glad you spread your hunt out over the course of the entire season and soaked it all in. That is what makes a limited tag so special, and I would do the same if I found myself in your shoes. Meanwhile, unlimited hunters have spread their hunt out over several years or decades. That is what makes the unlimited hunts special.

I hope you aren't under the impression that I am advocating for taking away draw hunts. They have their place, for certain, and will always make up the vast majority of sheep tags. The goals for both of our mindsets are the same- quality hunts and solid herd management.

 

[shines@times]

I don't think it needs to be pushed on every state that offers sheep hunts. I do think it should be considered when feasible and when the limited entry hunts aren't living up to the "as advertised". You've outlined the mindset of the vast majority of those that draw a sheep tag- they should have ample opportunity at killing a "trophy" ram. I'm by no means advocating against that. In fact, quite the opposite. 302 for example has some great trophy ram potential, and those that draw it expect to kill a mature ram, not just have an opportunity to do so. But as it currently stands, there are numerous years where the success rate is 66% (4/6) or so due to how the season is structured and when the sheep migrate to lower, more accessible country (It closes October 31st instead of the last Sunday of November like most other hunts). What I would advocate for in this case, is that you reduce the LE tags to 4 from 6, but have the season run through the end of the general season. I would then allocate the other 2 tags, or even 1 tag, to a UL hunt in the backcountry portion of the unit where no one is currently killing sheep anyway. This is just one unit, which has its own issues. My idea wouldn't work in every unit, or even most, but it could work here to both create more "opportunity" as well as to improve the LE hunters opportunity, success, and trophy potential. I think there are creative solutions that can do this across different states, Wyoming or not.

As to the age of the unlimited rams, or being "barely legal"- this will always come down to a hunters choice. I've had coworkers shoot a "legal" 150" ram in the same unit Greenhorn is hunting this year- that unit can produce 170+" rams. But it was that hunters choice. Meanwhile, hunters like Gomer and many others, have held out for the "right" ram in the Unlimiteds.

I am glad you spread your hunt out over the course of the entire season and soaked it all in. That is what makes a limited tag so special, and I would do the same if I found myself in your shoes. Meanwhile, unlimited hunters have spread their hunt out over several years or decades. That is what makes the unlimited hunts special.

I hope you aren't under the impression that I am advocating for taking away draw hunts. They have their place, for certain, and will always make up the vast majority of sheep tags. The goals for both of our mindsets are the same- quality hunts and solid herd management.

I hope, YoungGun, that you are in fact a young person. I'd like to think that your creative thinking has a few decades to go before it sours and becomes cynical like my own. Preservation of our rights and interests requires fresh blood to carry the ideals forward. I will cop to never having been politically active enough to hoist that burden. I tried once; got involved in coalition of outdoor clubs on the Olympic Peninsula that sought to obtain use of government land for a public shooting range that the NRA also supported and said they would provide the design services to ensure a safe facility. Forty+ years later it is no closer to reality. My own disillusionment came early when I observed people whose egos mattered to them more than the mutual objective hijacked meetings with incessant arguments over Robert's Rules of Order or similar ancillary matters.

In subsequent decades, I saw a concrete skating park built within a city park here in Port Angeles, WA using city crews and, presumably, tax dollars to accommodate that user group. It seems almost no time elapsed between proposal and reality, though that might just be the perspective of a jaded old fart. At least one fatally that I am aware of has since occurred on that concrete.

I don't particularly want to change who I am, especially at this late stage of life, but I often reflect upon that old saw: "It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease." I hope you will be an active and squeaky wheel for the interests of hunters in general, and those who want a chance to hunt Bighorn sheep before they've spent a lifetime submitting draw tag applications in particular. Within this forum, I've repeatedly advocated for an expansion of the UL permit season concept to additional areas. I'm happy to see that call taken up by other advocates like yourself who have invested more detailed thought into the idea. Good luck going forward--I hope many others join in the effort.

 

[MTGomer]

The Beartooth ram has discovered anti-aging like no human could ever wish for. He can be an obvious 6 on the winter range one year, an obvious 7 the next, an obvious 8 the following year, get killed 4 years later and he is still 8.

Today he get snowed on.

 

[Irishman]

Thanks for grabbing that garbage, TBoschma. Real shame that it's an issue at all.

As for expanding UL opportunities- I absolutely agree that there is room for it, at least as it pertains to Big Horn Sheep.
I agree that Mountain Goats are a bit of a stretch, just based on folks having a difficult time ascertaining whether it is a Billy of Nanny they are looking at, let alone age class like you can do with Sheep. Maybe if they did a late hunt like British Columbia it could work in units that are already giving lots of tags- say a February hunt. That would thin the participants a fair bit, and also let the Goats use their natural abilities / adaptations to their advantage.
I think if/when there is a Grizzly hunt in the west again, an Unlimited hunt with short reporting and immediate closure upon a sow being killed could be a hell of a way to manage them versus a lottery system.
As for sheep units in Montana that could be ripe for UL opportunities- 302 immediately comes to mind. 10 day season starting September 1, backcountry only. 1 Ram quota with a 24 or 48 hour closure. Reduce the limited tags from 6 to 5, but expand the limited season dates to go from September 15- last Sunday of November to give those who drew a much better opportunity to harvest.
I think 304 could be a great opportunity, as well. But I'd make it a 24 hour closure based on cell coverage and access. I also think you could split 500. Those herds occasionally intermingle, but for the most part, the unit fluxes as far as success and hunting pressure from the east to the west historically. I'll leave the dividing line up to FWP to figure out.
And just to stir the pot- I'd love to see a 5 day, 1 ram, archery only UL hunt in a remote portion of 680. That would pull some folks out of the point pool in a hurry, and give the common man as much a chance at a great ram as those buying the auction tag.

The problem with an unlimited grizzly hunt would be that about 50 people would kill one the first day, and that would be the end of grizzly bear hunting for another 30 years.

 

[winmag]

The problem with an unlimited grizzly hunt would be that about 50 people would kill one the first day, and that would be the end of grizzly bear hunting for another 30 years.

Same for an unlimited goat hunt.

 

[Beignet]

Everyone’s doing their best I’m sure but the kill report accuracy is somewhat dependent on who checks the ram in.

Where might one find such a kill report? I'm kind of curious to know more about what kind of sheep are being harvested around the state, even if some of the data is subjective.

 

[BigHornRam]

A February goat hunt would ween out the wannabes.

 

[winmag]

Agreed- unless you made it a February hunt in the high country for Goats, or something like that.

That's really an awesome idea for a goat hunt. And wilderness area only to keep people from shooting them off the road or a snow mobile.

 

[Beignet]

FWP has them on their website. https://fwp.mt.gov/hunt/regulations/bighorn-sheep Select the drop down for "Bighorn Sheep Measurements".

D’oh! Can’t believe I missed that. Thanks!