Thanks Buzz,I didn't know the whole deal with region D.I always wondered where all these deer were in that region when I use to hunt it.I've seen some pockets of deer years ago and some real big bucks;but not many.Schmalts has it right about the greed to.I hear it here every year,and those same guys will pop the only doe they will see.I wont even think about shooting a doe on public ground by me;its that bad.But, I cant stop the other guys from killing as many as they can find
Good news for eastern mt mule deer!
- Thread starter teamhoyt
- Start date
BuzzH
Well-known member
I totally disagree, its not the hunters fault at all. The average person that drags their rifle out of the closet once a year and buys tags that the GF/FWP tells them they can, is NOT the problem.
The MTFWP is charged with managing the states wildlife resources, and if they issue tags, that is telling the hunters that the population can sustain that.
The issuing of 4500 doe tags is 100% the problem of the FWP...if they didn't issue the tags, there wouldn't be one doe killed. Period.
Time for everyone to quit blaming hunters and expecting them not to buy tags when they're offered and start putting the pressure on the FWP to not offer them. No tags to buy, they wont be purchased.
Asking hunters to self regulate themselves by not buying tags has NEVER worked, in any state.
Nameless Range
Well-known member
I see where schmalts is coming from, but largely agree with Buzz.
I thought of myself as a somewhat informed hunter until I stumbled on to HuntTalk a few years ago. I always assumed that FWP was "managing" our herds through license allocation, and if they put out a bunch of tags for whatever, there was a reason. I remember feeling and saying vocally that, because hunting in Montana has always been relatively good for me, that I had FWP to thank for that, and that I considered that evidence that they should be trusted moving forward. I just always considered them the informed experts acting on that expertise.
Just talking to so many people in the past 6 months about Shoulder Seasons has reminded me of this. They read what they read in the paper and buy it hook, line, and sinker. "There's too many elk in parts of Montana! They've exceeded the carrying capicity of the land!" The opinions and insight we get here on HuntTalk are not abundant outside of this forum. Granted, hunters need to take it upon themselves to educate themselves and realize that there are a lot of forces acting upon FWP, and there are alot of sources, more now than ever, to highlight what is wrong. Most just trust the FWP because things are the way they have been for most of their hunting lives. Ultimately, I think it would be more effective to focus our efforts on changing the regulatory culture of FWP than asking hunters to voluntarily not buy or fill tags.
BuzzH
Well-known member
What needs to change the most is FWP leadership.
The local biologists, in particular some of the younger ones, have a very good grasp on what's going on. They just get ham-strung by their supervisors anytime they want to make a biological decision that would fix it.
I cant think of anything more frustrating than working for a department that NEVER backs the recommendations of their biologists. What a pointless, valueless, waste of time career choice. Those that step out of line with the status quo, even a little bit and try to do what's right be the resource, are fired...seen it, just recently.
Those that get promoted in the FWP, are not those that manage resources the best. The ones that get promoted are the whack 'em and stack 'em tools, like John Vore, Mike Thompson, and Quentin Kujala. You want to rise to the top in the FWP on the fast track???? Kill as much wildlife as you can, you'll be on top before you know it.
The local biologists, in particular some of the younger ones, have a very good grasp on what's going on. They just get ham-strung by their supervisors anytime they want to make a biological decision that would fix it.
I cant think of anything more frustrating than working for a department that NEVER backs the recommendations of their biologists. What a pointless, valueless, waste of time career choice. Those that step out of line with the status quo, even a little bit and try to do what's right be the resource, are fired...seen it, just recently.
Those that get promoted in the FWP, are not those that manage resources the best. The ones that get promoted are the whack 'em and stack 'em tools, like John Vore, Mike Thompson, and Quentin Kujala. You want to rise to the top in the FWP on the fast track???? Kill as much wildlife as you can, you'll be on top before you know it.
Not the hunters fault at all? If hunters don't do any thinking on their own there would never be a voice of customer. The WI DNR tries to slaughter our population all the time and the only thing that helps is angry outdoorsmen that show up at public hearings. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand culling doe will not help recovery of a decimated heard. People need to take part in controlling a government body otherwise you end up with what you described as the government body not doing what's right. And your comment about hunters self regulating themselves never working, well you just agreed with me like it or not. It never works because of exactly what I said is the problem.
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BuzzH
Well-known member
Schmalts,
You don't do much thinking either, just like a majority of hunters.
That's why there are GF agencies, why biologists are hired, and why hunters trust the agencies to make the right decisions. That's what their license fees pay for, management.
Blaming hunters for buying tags and filling them is a non-starter...and you're wrong.
The tags shouldn't be available to start with, problem solved.
So, Schmalts, if you do so much THINKING, can you tell me what the buck to doe ratios are in the area you killed your deer in Montana? Any idea on the total population? How about your Wyoming elk? Do you even know how elk are managed in that unit? BTC ratio's? Cow/calf ratio's? Over-all population?
How about your AZ pronghorn? Did you personally know anything about unit 7?
You have/had no idea, you apply just like everyone else and take the word of the GF agencies that they are doing their management job so you have some animals to hunt.
You don't do much thinking either, just like a majority of hunters.
That's why there are GF agencies, why biologists are hired, and why hunters trust the agencies to make the right decisions. That's what their license fees pay for, management.
Blaming hunters for buying tags and filling them is a non-starter...and you're wrong.
The tags shouldn't be available to start with, problem solved.
So, Schmalts, if you do so much THINKING, can you tell me what the buck to doe ratios are in the area you killed your deer in Montana? Any idea on the total population? How about your Wyoming elk? Do you even know how elk are managed in that unit? BTC ratio's? Cow/calf ratio's? Over-all population?
How about your AZ pronghorn? Did you personally know anything about unit 7?
You have/had no idea, you apply just like everyone else and take the word of the GF agencies that they are doing their management job so you have some animals to hunt.
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It must hurt to read into everything so much to the point where you miss the point. The topic is doe tags and low population numbers. Not buck to doe ratios, not bull elk and lope numbers, but SE montana deer numbers. If you can't understand that and only want to focus on how much you can disagree with someone you have at it.
Its good to see so many passionate about Montana mule deer. Everybody may not agree on the fix but we are all agreeing that our public land herds need help and that is a start.
I cant control MTFWP tag allotments. I can participate but in the end it is what MTFWP sets.
I can and do control what i hunt. My family does not hunt mule deer does. Period. Never have and never will. If anyone is needing a "freezer filler" send me a pm. I give away 2-3 mule deer every year. I usually eat my tag but my wife and boy fill A tags with younger bucks. The boy is 15 years old. Once he turns 18 and football ends He will have more time to hunt and i plan on persueding him to start holding out for mature deer at that point of his life. He will have four deer kills at that time. Thats enough. Time to start thinking about the resource
My wife works full time and raises 3 kids. She gets limited time in the field right now. Once the kids are grown she will also switch to holding out for a mature buck.
We DONT NEED the meat. We do NEED the deer around to have an enjoyable hunt. Without the resource the love of the hunt dies quickly. I set a goal of 170" and stick with it. I have no problem eating my tag, and i eat it more then i fill it, because i believe, in the long run it helps the resource.
I cant control MTFWP tag allotments. I can participate but in the end it is what MTFWP sets.
I can and do control what i hunt. My family does not hunt mule deer does. Period. Never have and never will. If anyone is needing a "freezer filler" send me a pm. I give away 2-3 mule deer every year. I usually eat my tag but my wife and boy fill A tags with younger bucks. The boy is 15 years old. Once he turns 18 and football ends He will have more time to hunt and i plan on persueding him to start holding out for mature deer at that point of his life. He will have four deer kills at that time. Thats enough. Time to start thinking about the resource
My wife works full time and raises 3 kids. She gets limited time in the field right now. Once the kids are grown she will also switch to holding out for a mature buck.
We DONT NEED the meat. We do NEED the deer around to have an enjoyable hunt. Without the resource the love of the hunt dies quickly. I set a goal of 170" and stick with it. I have no problem eating my tag, and i eat it more then i fill it, because i believe, in the long run it helps the resource.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Schmalts,
Spin it any way you want.
When GF agencies make tags available, hunters apply for and hunt with those tags under the assumption that the agencies are issuing tags based on science and whats best for the resource...makes no difference if its a buck tag, bull tag, cow tag, doe tag etc. That's their job, that's what we all pay for.
The hunters applying for deer b tags in Montana are doing the EXACT same thing you do when you apply for a bull permit in Wyoming. They look at the number of tags issued and assume the GF is doing a good job with management and that the population can with stand it.
Its not a hunters fault if the GF agencies are screwing up and over-issuing tags, its not the hunters fault they fill those tags that the agency issued.
I hold no contempt for a hunter that legally fills a state issued permit...its sad that you do.
Blaming hunters for filling a legally issued tag makes as much sense as blaming a spoon for a kid being fat.
Spin it any way you want.
When GF agencies make tags available, hunters apply for and hunt with those tags under the assumption that the agencies are issuing tags based on science and whats best for the resource...makes no difference if its a buck tag, bull tag, cow tag, doe tag etc. That's their job, that's what we all pay for.
The hunters applying for deer b tags in Montana are doing the EXACT same thing you do when you apply for a bull permit in Wyoming. They look at the number of tags issued and assume the GF is doing a good job with management and that the population can with stand it.
Its not a hunters fault if the GF agencies are screwing up and over-issuing tags, its not the hunters fault they fill those tags that the agency issued.
I hold no contempt for a hunter that legally fills a state issued permit...its sad that you do.
Blaming hunters for filling a legally issued tag makes as much sense as blaming a spoon for a kid being fat.
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I guess we have a different view on accountability. Without even commenting on the points you make that have nothing to do with my original comment and try to tie them in, let me try to explain once again my point, so don't read anything else into this now buddy. When a hunter hunts the same area for years on end, and the population goes from high to very low, if he is complaining about low deer numbers and is still shooting doe he is part of the problem. If you don't agree with that I'd be really confused. Peace out
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2000
- Messages
- 11,620
If the speed limit is 150mph, is a guy an idiot for driving 150? Do you blame the folks who set the limit, or a driver?
Is the guy bitching that high speeds are causing too many traffic deaths while he's going 150mph?
jryoung
Well-known member
Seems like it should be a 60/40 or 70/30 split on accountability. The department holds the knowledge and data, but hunters should work to understand better on their end. If you take away tags for better management, hunters bitch because of "loss of opportunity". It's unfortunate that more hunters don't make that little bit of effort to understand what's going on....but that's where the department should display some leadership.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Schmalts,
Try this, since it should come in, in stereo for you.
Lets say we both know a guy from Bozeman that kills a lot of big bulls, has been doing it for years.
Say in the last few seasons, he's been seeing less and less bulls, but still continues to shoot one each year.
Are you going to chew that guys ass for shooting a bull elk that he's been seeing less and less of for a long time? You should, because that person has been hunting the same areas for a long time and knows the bull elk population is not doing well on public land.
It makes no sense for me to say a word, because frankly, the FWP is still selling that guy a $20 general elk tag and telling him that everything is A-OK from a biological standpoint. They're giving him the green light to hunt.
Its the exact same thing the FWP is telling people that buy mule deer doe tags...no different at all.
Try this, since it should come in, in stereo for you.
Lets say we both know a guy from Bozeman that kills a lot of big bulls, has been doing it for years.
Say in the last few seasons, he's been seeing less and less bulls, but still continues to shoot one each year.
Are you going to chew that guys ass for shooting a bull elk that he's been seeing less and less of for a long time? You should, because that person has been hunting the same areas for a long time and knows the bull elk population is not doing well on public land.
It makes no sense for me to say a word, because frankly, the FWP is still selling that guy a $20 general elk tag and telling him that everything is A-OK from a biological standpoint. They're giving him the green light to hunt.
Its the exact same thing the FWP is telling people that buy mule deer doe tags...no different at all.
sra61
Member
We've hunted "The Breaks" for a long time. They get LOTS of pressure, alot better access now than just 10 years ago with the lake up and ATV's everywhere, hell even way more people with horses it seems. A few years ago when they had the big snow year is when we saw the drastic decline in numbers of everything. It killed almost everything. We didn't even go over for a couple of years. I still just don't see squat for mulies, and we don't hunt from the road. The Breaks are the only place we hunt East of the divide so that's the only place I have knowledge of, but from what I have witnessed with my own eyes, I feel like the lack of Mule Deer there started with the increased pressure and then the big snow wiped them out and they just can't seem to get a good foothold back again with the outrageous number of predators both furry and human. As for low license cost, I can say that I for sure could go live somewhere else and make way more money, and pay less in property taxes and such, but I make that sacrifice so I can be here. Lower wages and higher cost of living IMO maybe kind of offset those more affordable license costs for me as a resident. I certainly can't say I am at all a fan of MT FWP and the way they manage most things, but it is a very complicated can of worms, with property rights smack dab in the middle of it all. I'm glad I live here even if FWP can't help but screw it up!
you once again did not fill in all the blanks. Is this guy constantly complaining about how few bull elk are left? Or is it just his observation and he is content with hunting harder without bitching about bull numbers being low.
Is anyone else not following this? I didnt think I was that poor at getting a point across in my very first post in this thread .
BuzzH
Well-known member
Yes...along with every other serious hunter I know in Montana.
I can tell you when they'll all quit hunting elk, when the elk are all dead, they're dead, or when the FWP decides to quit giving them elk tags...and not one minute sooner. I don't blame them one bit.
Exactly the same case with the guys buying doe tags, and I don't blame them either.
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I put in for doe tags and if drawn, I will kill does. I like deer meat.
If you shoot more deer than your family needs, maybe you need to reevaluate.
Perfect. And I bet you never bitched about how low the deer population was while hunting doe. You are not part of the problem.
That's kind of sad it's come to that. Btw, if he was shooting cows while bitching about low elk numbers I would ask why is he shooting cows.
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