With the latest ruling against UPOM, FWP has really been given some leverage. Landowners now know that no matter how much they complain, they aren't going to get the tags to sell. They will have to work with FWP or I hope the elk eat the siding off their houses.
Good Neighbor: Elk Management in Montana
- Thread starter Ben Lamb
- Start date
SAJ-99
Well-known member
Sounds like the "Montana Values" argument. Good luck with that. I think it ignores the changes in economics and culture. We too often try to save things that can't be saved. I like the video, but my criticism is that they picked someone whose point of view ("show me the money") is literally the opposite of most Montanans. Someone needs to make a video that clarifies the issues of this situation so people (FWP, landowners, voters) can negotiate the points, hopefully in good faith, but going back to "the way it was" isn't going to happen. I am 100% sure that money will be a factor in any "solution".
antlerradar
Well-known member
I don't disagree with you. Just remember that the dollar amount is high because there are lots of hunters willing to pay the price. So far most of the effort to slow commercialization has been focused on the supply side of the equation. Find ways to cut demand and you will reduce the dollar amount and improve access.
Paying to hunt will always be a hard no for me. mtmuley
Very good point. I see where outfitters are getting $13k+ for a single bull. That's a big carrot. I do have the answer for cutting the demand. It's simple, but unpopular because it too takes the dollar out of the equation. The answer is to go cow only in over-objective units. Access would abound and elk management would be restored.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
A couple of thoughts,
My naivete came out, because I'm still shocked that people who commodify a public resource line up so readily asking for more. So they can line their pockets, and walls, with the proceeds from that common resource, owned by all, that they've conveniently locked us commoners from access to. I'd be in support of govt eradication of the wildlife on that slick talkers place.
And second, you can never pay enough to access places like his, someone is always going to be willing to pay more than the public, and as you drive that price up you just incentivize more to ditch traditional ranching for leasing and outfitting.
My naivete came out, because I'm still shocked that people who commodify a public resource line up so readily asking for more. So they can line their pockets, and walls, with the proceeds from that common resource, owned by all, that they've conveniently locked us commoners from access to. I'd be in support of govt eradication of the wildlife on that slick talkers place.
And second, you can never pay enough to access places like his, someone is always going to be willing to pay more than the public, and as you drive that price up you just incentivize more to ditch traditional ranching for leasing and outfitting.
D
Deleted member 16864
Guest
"Code of the West" means just about anything these days, unless you're talking about the Zane Grey novel. Hope that hooch you're drinking is the high dollar stuff...............
D
Deleted member 16864
Guest
I for one would be in favor of no farmer/rancher welfare without public access for hunting.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
'Don't know how long you've been in Montana, but the CODE OF THE WEST has historically and traditionally been more specific than you express. In fact it has been published as a Gallatin County document for newcomers to read as guidance in acclimating to Montana life and mores.
'Don't know why you made that remark ... but it's a bit disrespectful. 'Make's me speculate that perhaps you are a bit tipsy and not able to read and comprehend quite to the clarity expected of my post.
That's happened time and time again unfortunately. I happened to know Bob Anderson personally, although I've never hunted his ground (not my style) he's just been a family friend. But he told me that he will always allow public hunting for as long as he lives. It's just something that he truly believes in. As far as the other cat...I think there is a reason that they featured two ranchers and their different view points. Bob has been ranching since I can remember, and his family before that. The other dude is a "1st generation" rancher. Not that that necessarily matters...but the mindset sure does. I didn't pick his occupation for him...he did. It seems he gets more money and gratification out of pimping out elk/sheep hunts than he does ranching so he needs to make his mind up imo. I just got the vibe from him that he could give a s**t less if he allowed public hunting. All he saw and wants was dollar signs. I say let them elk eat him out of house and home. Maybe public hunting wouldn't be such a bad idea. I get there is bad seeds and "mouth breathers" that don't know what they're doing hunting elk, but if it actually meant anything to him as far as his livelihood, financials and business goes he would be all about it.
I completely agree! the cry baby outfitters would shit a squealing worm though and FWP loves outfitters and NR money!
D
Deleted member 52937
Guest
I see it slightly different but generally agree and understand the point.
When you see a flood of archers on public trying to kill every last one it makes me happy to know there’s still a few spots they can hide and be managed by someone other than FWP. I hate that it’s become what it has with 10-20k price tags but it incentivizes the property owner to carefully manage that resource.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
And I see yours, but the optics honestly just pissed me off. He has 20k in taxidermy hanging in a custom home, but is "cash poor". It's clear that )#$(*))@ has no idea what cash poor actually is.
My thoughts exactly. A bunch of gobbledygook and "poor me". Guy probably makes 15k on an elk or sheep hunt. Talk to any "actual" rancher and they could give a s**t about the elk, they're in it for the beef. That guy rubbed me the wrong way.
D
Deleted member 16864
Guest
Owning cattle is a tax write off when you're a hunting ranch owner.
Forkyfinder
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2023
- Messages
- 5,996
Lol i guess im glad im not the only one. I am glad for him. Theres a lot folks a lot worse off.
Either way - the solutions are what are going to matter. The state should bolster the BMA program for good guys like Bob. I wish itd be more than a "public service" and a reliable income stream. Id like rewarding someone whos been in the program longer more and incentivizing that.
antlerradar
Well-known member
Again, this is focusing on the supply side of the equation. Outfitters do not pay 13k for a bull or do they pay for hunting leases. The hunters that they take are the ones paying. I am all for cow only, but that is not shifting the demand curve one bit. It is simply restricting the number of tags to zero. Maybe landowners would try to reduce elk number by allowing open cow hunting so they can take advantage of the demand for bull elk, but reducing cow numbers is easier said than done when there are large ranches owned by people that do not care how many elk there are. Cow only is probably doomed to fail.
D
Deleted member 56631
Guest
Thoughts on Paradise valley ranch?
It could be a hell of a lot worse.
They allow more resident elk hunting than any ranch I’m aware of.
Yet, I doubt Mr. Blank is relying on cattle or elk to pay his bills, making it a hard comparison to ranch owners who rely on cattle or elk to pay their bills.
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