FWP Commission to change Gardiner Elk hunting

[rogerthat]

Good work all and its good to see the commission doing the right thing even if they need to be drug through a knothole to do it.

I was busy at work and didn't catch all of it unfortunately.

What I did catch was that the commission wants to manage on science. Which I agree with, but if that's true, why even consider extending a season on a herd with 3.6 bulls per 100 cows?

I don't think any science on planet earth is going to say that's a properly managed herd.

For reference WY's recreation herd management guidelines call for 18-25 bulls per 100 cows post harvest. If they drop near 18, the season is shortened and/or spike harvest is eliminated.

Special management (most LQ areas) call for 40+ bulls per 100 cows. If the herd falls below that, the bull/any elk tags are reduced.

For reference some of the special management herds have 60+ bulls per 100 cows and some of our recreation management herds are over 40 bulls per 100 cows.

Management matters and its pretty evident when you hunt both states which place I'd rather have an elk tag for.

Yeah, why were we even discussing this with the stats? Montana wildlife management makes you want to bash your head off the wall repeatedly. I think it’s just going to get worse with this year’s legislation. In the words of a couple geniuses I know “buckle up cuzzo”

 

[sacountry]

Dear FWP, the Lamb says I need to do this....

Thank you FWP Commission for putting forth an open ear to the public comment process today. I certainly felt like each of you listened and offered feedback. One take away for me. If asked where I land on "opportunity" vs "trophy", my answer is whatever is in the best interest of the herd. For that reason, I don't believe a simple binary question of "opportunity v trophy" will yield anything of actionable value. Specifically, I could land on the side of opportunity if there is scientific evidence showing an over abundance of the resource. I'll land on the side of "trophy" if it's backed by biological science showing that it's in the best interest of the herd. I would venture a guess that most Montanan's would agree.

Again thank you,

<sent> minus the intro

 

[Big Fin]

Thanks to all the folks who commented. For Byorth to say that it was 10:1 against shows that a lot of people commented once this amendment was brought to the public's attention. And thanks to the FWP employee who made me aware of it and asked that I post it on Hunt Talk so that Montana hunters would know that it was open for discussion.

Glad to see the Commission defer and agree that more comment is needed for such a controversial change. I sent my email thanking them for deferring.

 

[Big Fin]

And to add to my thanks to the Hunt Talk crowd, there's a reason why this branch of our LLC is likely to never lose funding from me - seeing a huge surge of hunters jump in and take action when they read topics posted on Hunt Talk makes it worth every penny.

Just remind me of that fact when the off-season moderation headaches become more than I want to deal with.

 

[406dn]

I will give consideration to thanking them for tabling the motion. I'm not certain it is warranted, because I think it was a tactical retreat, not a surrender.

Here's my thoughts on the Northern herd. While listening this morning, the biologist (who I would thank, if I knew his name) mentioned the calf to cow ratio on their counts come in around 18 calves per hundred cows. That is a ratio that screams that there is not a lot of "surplus" to work with.

The herd is more or less stable, with essentially no cow harvest from hunters. The bull to cow ratio has not improved appreciably since the move to make the last two weeks a limited entry hunt. That tells me that with out that change, things would be worse than they were when the change occurred. It also tells me that we are at the limit of what the bull harvest can sustain.

Given the hunters of Montana share this resource with the world, I think that it is reasonable that visitors to YNP could have a reasonable "opportunity" to see mature bulls. They should not be observing a herd so far out of balance.

If I were king, the unit would be limited draw entirely, with a harvest on both sexes, to get the herd into a better balance, then to manage the harvest sustainably, after the herd had come into a better gender balance. Kind of a word salad there, oh well.

 

[Point Creep]

Anybody remember what that place was like to hunt mid 90s era? There was nowhere else on earth like it for quantities of bull elk. 3.6/100, wow.

 

[Point Creep]

I remember days of seeing several herds of 100+ mature branch antlered bulls together.

 

[rogerthat]

Just remind me of that fact when the off-season moderation headaches become more than I want to deal with.

Have you considered outsourcing the moderation duties to some of the more responsible long time hunt talkers? We could have a survey and vote. It would be like nominating homecoming king and queen. My vote would be @Hopzone Freak

Thanks for getting the word out on this one Randy.

 

[Ben Lamb]

And to add to my thanks to the Hunt Talk crowd, there's a reason why this branch of our LLC is likely to never lose funding from me - seeing a huge surge of hunters jump in and take action when they read topics posted on Hunt Talk makes it worth every penny.

Just remind me of that fact when the off-season moderation headaches become more than I want to deal with.

HT > Marine Corps Force Recon

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

With Commissioners Waller and Byorth leaving in January whats the guesses on who/ what type of person is appointed to replace them?

It seems like Byorth is one of the few members of that commission that sides with science and pushes back on the ludacris proposals. Even commissioner Waller seemed very open to listening to the public over all the meetings I watched. My hope is that the people appointed to replace them are similar and dont come in willing to do the bidding of MOGA and the billionaires.

 

[sacountry]

I remember days of seeing several herds of 100+ mature branch antlered bulls together.

I wonder if that data exists anywhere. It would reverse the direction of the conversation to limited permits all season long.

 

[Beignet]

With Commissioners Waller and Byorth leaving in January whats the guesses on who/ what type of person is appointed to replace them?

It seems like Byorth is one of the few members of that commission that sides with science and pushes back on the ludacris proposals. Even commissioner Waller seemed very open to listening to the public over all the meetings I watched. My hope is that the people appointed to replace them are similar and dont come in willing to do the bidding of MOGA and the billionaires.

I was curious about the same. Waller has almost always responded to my emails and usually shows up at local conservation organization events. Moreover, she seems to have really listened to her constituents.

Haven’t dealt personally with Byorth, but he does seem more open to science based decision making as opposed operating at the behest of certain lobbies.

Will be disappointing to see them go. Hoping, but not counting on their replacements being as good as they were to the hunting public.

 

[antlerradar]

“Pro- opportunity” is only opportunity if there’s a surplus of the resource to harvest. The fat’s mighty thin on a 3.6/100 bull to cow ratio.

I honestly don’t understand how Tabor can advance an “opportunity” argument with a straight face.

Is it really all that different in the rest of the state. Opportunity to take a weapon for a hike, not so much when it come to having a great hunt.

 

[antlerradar]

Anybody remember what that place was like to hunt mid 90s era? There was nowhere else on earth like it for quantities of bull elk. 3.6/100, wow.

I remember lots of elk. I also remember it was prudent to be behind something bullet proof at first light if you were anywhere close to the Park line.

 

[DFS]

Is it really all that different in the rest of the state. Opportunity to take a weapon for a hike, not so much when it come to having a great hunt.

The region 7 summary given by our commissioner mentioned some post season deer counts were above the long term average. I’m not sure what they are counting, sheep maybe. It would be nice to see a win for wildlife instead of a constant battle to keep bad from getting worse. Appreciate the people that took the time and stepped up to protect a resource I likely will never hunt. It is ok to have wildlife on the landscape.

 

[elkduds]

Thanks to all the folks who commented. For Byorth to say that it was 10:1 against shows that a lot of people commented once this amendment was brought to the public's attention. And thanks to the FWP employee who made me aware of it and asked that I post it on Hunt Talk so that Montana hunters would know that it was open for discussion.

Glad to see the Commission defer and agree that more comment is needed for such a controversial change. I sent my email thanking them for deferring.

Thank you emails sent.

Nicely done, HTers.

Next time you think you can't make a difference, go ahead and express your views to legislators and leaders.

 

[520 Road Sow]

Have you considered outsourcing the moderation duties to some of the more responsible long time hunt talkers? We could have a survey and vote. It would be like nominating homecoming king and queen. My vote would be @Hopzone Freak

Thanks for getting the word out on this one Randy.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I remember lots of elk. I also remember it was prudent to be behind something bullet proof at first light if you were anywhere close to the Park line.

My son and I were quite away north of the park line and still had to duck down off the ridge to escape the line of fire. As a high school teen he shot a trophy 6x6 bull that day, but I can tell you the bull / cow ratio was much higher than 3.6 / 100!
I was glad to hear the comments about unintended consequences with respect to hunter distribution. As discussed, there is alot of public land in HD 313, but the areas concentrating hunters during November are usually between Gardiner and Jardine and become crowded. Another consideration concerns overall long term herd health and maximizing opportunity for hammering typically is detrimental in the long run.

It was a good move to table the proposal for more discussion in conjunction with consideration of the upcoming introduction of the new EMP.
Thank-you, Big Fin and HT's who contributed input.

 

[rmyoung1]

Anybody remember what that place was like to hunt mid 90s era? There was nowhere else on earth like it for quantities of bull elk. 3.6/100, wow.

I remember well. This weird 13-year-old in tight, navy Spyder ski pants could ride into the A-B Wilderness Area with his dad and come home with one of these. Didn’t need to brave the Deckard scene to find one.

This was ‘91, the queen mother of all elk seasons in Gardiner… at least in my lifetime.

 

[TimberBuck]

My family, for several generations before me, hunted this herd at times on and off over their lifetimes, including some of the famous Gardiner late hunts. With the area's elk hunting in the toilet by the time I was old enough to hunt, it's always been hard for me to believe some of their stories of past.

Glad to hear the proposal was shelved today. Thank you Randy for the heads up and to those who voiced their opposition. This herd may never see its glory days of past, but it certainly deserves way better than 3.6/100.