Fixing Western Hunting

[BuzzH]

I am spending a full month hunting and fishing in Alaska this year. Come visit your welcome to my camps. Mexico was fun last month and British Columbia this fall will be too. Then the deer season starts again your welcome too join.

The rancor I see from Residents towards nonresidents is pretty pathetic considering that if the NR contributions suddenly magically disappeared there are lot of states wildlife agencies would be in the shitter. The only thing you all bitch more about than NR is when your subsidized resident license fees are raised.

I know there are bunch of NR on here that feel the same way I do, if my PMs are any indication. However they dont speak up for whatever reason.
Here is the thing I don’t really give a shit who doenst like what I have to say. And quite frankly if I don’t draw a single tag I am still hunting my ass off from one end of NA to the other where ever I could. I am not standing around hoping for a scrap to fall from the table. Just the way you don’t like hearing that NR pick up most of the tab in licensing revenue being brought in, we don’t like hearing that we should take what we are given and shut up and be happy even if it’s a raw deal.

What raw deal are you getting?

 

[perma]

As has been said many times, by me and many others, a lot of these problems are lessened if we get back to higher animal numbers, a solution not included in the OP. If we can get back to those higher numbers, a majority of that policy battle and hands-on work will likely be done by residents. Not that non-residents don't want to help, it's just a function of distance, geography, and political residency.

These type of discussions, though well-intentioned and with much thought by the OP, do nothing to solve the bigger problem - smaller and decreasing herd numbers. The suggestions tossed out in this thread and focusing the fight on R v. NR is waiving the surrender flag and resolving to just fight over the remaining scraps. I refuse to succumb to that scarcity mindset. Maybe I'll be proven a fool. I'll go down with that ship before I will fight over who gets to kill the last critter.

Louder for the people in the back!

 

[406dn]

As has been said many times, by me and many others, a lot of these problems are lessened if we get back to higher animal numbers, a solution not included in the OP.

Randy, you have mentioned this a couple of times recently. I wish that I could see it happening in a meaningful way. Just speaking to Montana, there is considerable resistance to increasing elk herds appreciably.

With the inevitable loss of undeveloped land, holding on to what we have is not a given.

 

[406dn]

The rancor I see from Residents towards nonresidents is pretty pathetic considering that IF the NR contributions suddenly magically disappeared there are lot of states wildlife agencies would be in the shitter.

Excuse me for editing your post. It is a big if and deserves a larger font.

 

[Trial153]

Excuse me for editing your post. It is a big if and deserves a larger font.

Here is the thing with money, budget, business, and life….it doesn’t take a magic zero. Money shortfalls snowball. They have a way of starting to roll down hill and it gets bigger and bigger. People don’t stop digger to often when they are in a hole. And governments NEVER stop digging.

Like I said be careful what you wish for you just might get it.

 

[406dn]

Here is the thing with money, budget, business, and life….it doesn’t take a magic zero. Money shortfalls snowball. They have a way of starting to roll down hill and it gets bigger and bigger. People don’t stop digger to often when they are in a hole. And governments NEVER stop digging.

Like I said be careful what you wish for you just might get it.

I've lived a life that I wished for. Married a good woman, made decent money, lived where I wanted, hunted a whole bunch my entire adult life.

What else should I wish for?

 

[Trial153]

I've lived a life that I wished for. Married a good woman, made decent money, lived where I wanted, hunted a whole bunch my entire adult life.

What else should I wish for?

You lived well. No doubt about it.

It’s in reference to several members on here that constantly make reference to further NR tag cuts and increasing fees while enjoying their subsidies. At some point the chickens come home to roost. And it seems to me that while they may reap short term befits they might not live see true long term cost of disenfranchisement and what it does to hunting in NA

 

[Mtrimble]

For what it’s worth, I whole heartedly agree with Randy regarding increasing the herds. In my original posts I didn’t emphasize that, but meant to address it in the limitation of one Elk/Mule deer tag per year and the idea of “Boots on the ground” programs that work toward that goal.

 

[DFS]

With the increase in nonresident whining many residents the ones that matter and care will pony up the money for leaving nonresidents out. I love to hunt other states but with the comments that have been made I won’t blame any state for cutting us nonresidents out. We don’t need your whining and abuse of lands you treat like a playground for one week a year that you have no attachment to. Keep your money and buy a tag where you can. The money certainly hasn’t improved anything in my lifetime.

 

[Nick87]

With the increase in nonresident whining many residents the ones that matter and care will pony up the money for leaving nonresidents out. I love to hunt other states but with the comments that have been made I won’t blame any state for cutting us nonresidents out. We don’t need your whining and abuse of lands you treat like a playground for one week a year that you have no attachment to. Keep your money and buy a tag where you can. The money certainly hasn’t improved anything in my lifetime.

Ahem...Excuse me sir, leave a couple tags for the non-whiners. Thank you.

 

[DFS]

Ahem...Excuse me sir, leave a couple tags for the non-whiners. Thank you.

You are welcome in Montana. It’s a great place to be for at least 3-4 months out of the year

 

[Nick87]

You are welcome in Montana. It’s a great place to be for at least 3-4 months out of the year

Been there hunting once, probably won't go back for that anytime in the near future. Would love to come back and do some other exploring though if I have time.

 

[DFS]

Been there hunting once, probably won't go back for that anytime in the near future. Would love to come back and do some other exploring though if I have time.

It is a great state you can’t blame people for wanting to come here. The dollars certainly haven’t helped our wildlife management maybe made it worse.

 

[Big Fin]

Randy, you have mentioned this a couple of times recently. I wish that I could see it happening in a meaningful way. Just speaking to Montana, there is considerable resistance to increasing elk herds appreciably.

With the inevitable loss of undeveloped land, holding on to what we have is not a given.

Agree. Agree X2.

It is hard work. It will take a lot of money. It will take a lot of commitment from hunters. Yet, that is where the focus has to be. If every person who spent time on HT arguing about R v NR allocation dedicated $2 for each hour spent here, it would be a ton of money. Not that I expect such, but I mention that to illustrate that hunters could do a lot more beneficial things with their time and money that would help wildlife.

Money and effort needs to be allocated toward Colorado mule deer (mule deer everywhere for that matter), Wyoming and Arizona pronghorn, Montana and Idaho wild sheep, and the list goes on and on. I know a lot of people working on those things. We need more people and more money applied toward the efforts that increase herds.

I look at some of the habitat initiatives taking place in Region 1 of Montana as progress. It is almost all public land and was historically some great elk herds. If we can get those habitat projects implemented and the USFS/FWP not get sued into oblivion, that will be progress. The elk numbers will never be the same as the 1950s-80s, but they could be much higher and will be higher if these projects go through.

I look at MT wild sheep. Numbers declined for years. There are folks volunteering with FWP on a lot of new projects or pushing forward with projects that previously were shelved. Though we are way down in our sheep numbers, I think we will see some rebounds in the next ten years. That will be meaningful.

I look at the work of the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance. Montana goats are suffering in some places, though RMGA is working with FWP by volunteering for studies, providing data, raising money. It will take time, but they have already helped in meaningful ways and have brought a few new goat units on line for tags.

I look at the fence removals we've been a part of in the Dillon country. Those old fences are proven to create huge roadblocks for migrating pronghorn and to a lesser degree, elk. Volunteers have replaced miles of fence that will help pronghorn in what was one of the most robust herds in Region 3.

There are a lot of things going on. Those few MT examples I mention are not going to solve the problem, though they are making a difference. In every one of those examples, it has been hunters, volunteers and organizations helping FWP or the USFS.

Hunter-led efforts is the historical example that got numbers to where they were just 20 years ago. I think we need to reconsider the mindset that it is the agency's job, which in part it is, though a lot of the big wildlife successes were volunteers and their organizations.

Arizona elk were reintroduced by the Elks Club in Winslow Arizona. They assessed every member a $.50 one-time dues increase in 1912. In 1913, 83 elk were railroaded from YNP to AZ. Followed by more loads in later years. That is now 35,000 elk.

Just 26 years ago, Kentucky elk were reintroduced due to a person who wouldn't take NO for an answer. Tom Baker, an avid hunter, RMEF Committee Chairman and later Board Member, used all of his contacts to convince Kentucky officials to start an introduction program. He got the law changed so that wildlife fines went to an account that would be used for elk restoration. He convinced RMEF to pledge $1MM to match other funding. Kentucky now has 14,000 elk in less than 30 years. KPW was a big player in that, but if not for an individual and an organization, elk in Kentucky would still be a "someday" idea.

There are stories of Nevada elk going from 500 to 12,000 today, due to a lot of Nevada hunters pushing for it and RMEF giving funding. That all happened in 25 years. Nevada has increased wild sheep numbers from 2,000 to over 10,000, thanks to Nevada Bighorns Unlimited and Fraternity of the Desert Bighorn doing the hard work of water installations across the state.

I look at the P-J removal projects in Arizona led by hunting groups who have say in how the auction and raffle tag dollars get used. They are changing thousands of P-J acres to grassland/shrub that will help mule deer and pronghorn with both forage and surface water. G&F is the leader, but it was hunters and their organizations who brought money and priority to the effort.

I see what @Oak and the RMBS is doing for sheep in Colorado and I'm optimistic. I see what a group of Hunt Talkers are trying to do for mule deer in Montana. I see groups forming a Winter Range conservation group in Wyoming. All of that, and many other examples, makes me optimistic.

Sorry to ramble on here. I'm trying to make the point (maybe not doing a good job of it) that we as hunters and our organizations are the ones that are going to make the difference. Agencies can help, but they are pulled so many ways on so many issues that it takes hunters bringing their voice and demanding more to make herd increases a priority. Yeah, easier winters will help. Wetter cycles in the SW states will help. Even with better weather trends, we still need hunters to do more, no matter where they live or where the wildlife lives.

Maybe I'm too optimistic in my expectation that hunters are willing to do this work that hunters did in the generations before us. I see examples all the time, just a few of which I've mentioned. I talk to people who ask for help in their efforts. Seeing them do these things makes me optimistic that we can increase herds across the west.

 

[Nick87]

The overwhelming majority wouldn't even donate that $2 unless they thought it might lead to an opportunity at a tag. Resident or nonresident. Any state

 

[jvanhoy]

Agree. Agree X2.

It is hard work. It will take a lot of money. It will take a lot of commitment from hunters. Yet, that is where the focus has to be. If every person who spent time on HT arguing about R v NR allocation dedicated $2 for each hour spent here, it would be a ton of money. Not that I expect such, but I mention that to illustrate that hunters could do a lot more beneficial things with their time and money that would help wildlife.

Money and effort needs to be allocated toward Colorado mule deer (mule deer everywhere for that matter), Wyoming and Arizona pronghorn, Montana and Idaho wild sheep, and the list goes on and on. I know a lot of people working on those things. We need more people and more money applied toward the efforts that increase herds.

I look at some of the habitat initiatives taking place in Region 1 of Montana as progress. It is almost all public land and was historically some great elk herds. If we can get those habitat projects implemented and the USFFS/FWP not get sued into oblivion, that will be progress. The elk numbers will never be the same as the 1950s-80s, but they could be much higher and will be higher if these projects go through.

I look at MT wild sheep. Numbers declined for years. There are folks volunteering with FWP on a lot of new projects or pushing forward with projects that previously were shelved. Though we are way down in our sheep numbers, I think we will see some rebounds in the next ten years. That will be meaningful.

I look at the work of the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance. Montana goats are suffering in some places, though RMGA is working with FWP by volunteering for studies, providing data, raising money. It will take time, but they have already helped in meaningful ways and have brought a few new goat units on line for tags.

I look at the fence removals we've been a part of in the Dillon country. Those old fences are proven to create huge roadblocks for migrating pronghorn and to a lesser degree, elk. Volunteers have replaced miles of fence that will help pronghorn in what was one of the most robust herds in Region 3.

There are a lot of things going on. Those few MT examples I mention are not going to solve the problem, though they are making a difference. In every one of those examples, it has been hunters, volunteers and organizations helping FWP or the USFS.

Hunter-led efforts is the historical example that got numbers to where they were just 20 years ago. I think we need to reconsider the mindset that it is the agency's job, which in part it is, though a lot of the big wildlife successes were volunteers and their organizations.

Arizona elk were reintroduced by the Elks Club in Winslow Arizona. They assessed every member a $.50 one-time dues increase in 1912. In 1913, 83 elk were railroaded from YNP to AZ. Followed by more loads in later years. That is now 35,000 elk.

Just 26 years ago, Kentucky elk were reintroduced due to a person who wouldn't take NO for an answer. Tom Baker, an avid hunter, RMEF Committee Chairman and later Board Member, used all of his contacts to convince Kentucky officials to start an introduction program. He got the law changed so that wildlife fines went to an account that would be used for elk restoration. He convinced RMEF to pledge $1MM to match other funding. Kentucky now has 14,000 elk in less than 30 years. KPW was a big player in that, but if not for an individual and an organization, elk in Kentucky would still be a "someday" idea.

There are stories of Nevada elk going from 500 to 12,000 today, due to a lot of Nevada hunters pushing for it and RMEF giving funding. That all happened in 25 years. Nevada has increased wild sheep numbers from 2,000 to over 10,000, thanks to Nevada Bighorns Unlimited and Fraternity of the Desert Bighorn doing the hard work of water installations across the state.

I look at the P-J removal projects in Arizona led by hunting groups who have say in how the auction and raffle tag dollars get used. They are changing thousands of P-J acres to grassland/shrub that will help mule deer and pronghorn with both forage and surface water. G&F is the leader, but it was hunters and their organizations who brought money and priority to the effort.

I see what @Oak and the RMBS is doing for sheep in Colorado and I'm optimistic. I see what a group of Hunt Talkers are trying to do for mule deer in Montana. I see groups forming a Winter Range conservation group in Wyoming. All of that, and many other examples, makes me optimistic.

Sorry to ramble on here. I trying to make the point (maybe not doing a good job of it) that we as hunters and our organizations are the ones that are going to make the difference. Agencies can help, but they are pulled so many ways on so many issues that it takes hunters bringing their voice and demanding more to make herd increases a priority. Yeah, easier winters will help. Wetter cycles in the SW states will help. Even with better weather trends, we still need hunters to do more, no matter where they live or where the wildlife lives.

Maybe I'm too optimistic in my expectation that hunters are willing to do this work that hunters did in the generations before us. I see examples all the time, just a few of which I've mentioned. I talk to people who ask for help in their efforts. Seeing them do these things makes me optimistic that we can increase herds across the west.

It’s been brought up a few times. Why not have a subscription fee for HT? If you don’t need it donate for conservation. I think most of us would be happy to pay. ESP if it keeps post from Tom T and Bill the Bot.

 

[Archer86]

Im going way out of character in making this post. I know there is a good chance that I will regret it. I've been a member here for many years, and have been reading the forum on a very regular basis for that entire time, although I rarely post. I recently read carefully the long thread regarding "devaluing non-resident hunters" and agree with Randy's last post wherein he concluded that not much was resolved on these issues.

I'm a resident of Ohio and a typical mid-west whitetail enthusiast going on 40 years. Over that same time frame I've been blessed to participate in four western hunts (two Colorado and two Montana). I care deeply about wildlife to include the various game species that inhabit the west. In addition to the western hunting trips, I've been taking an annual fly fishing trip to Montana/Wyoming for several years. I have also visited Montana and Wyoming on non-fishing/hunting trips on at least three occasions in the last few years. Put simply, I love the area.

So, if I were king for a day, here are some of the things I would recommend for the benefit of all hunters and outdoorsmen.

1) Form a western States coalition wherein the States would share information regarding hunting license sales, herd health and population, and other critical factors related to licensing. As part of this effort, I would recommend that hunters only be eligible for one western State license per year for the following species - Elk, Mule Deer, Antelope, Sheep, Goats, Moose. In the more rare species, I would recommend long intervals - up to one in a lifetime. Hunters would be eligible for a total of two licenses per year for different species, i.e, Elk and Mule Deer.

2) As part of this coalition, I would form an incentive (like draw odds) for first time western hunters, and hunters under age 18. (Get more stake-holders)

3) I would recommend that States issue a "Federal Public Land Only" license, to be allocated without regard to resident/non-resident status, following the theory that as federal tax payers, we all support Federal public lands equally. State public land licenses should be reserved for residents to a very great extent.

4) States would still have full control over the number of licenses made available, and cost. They would also control the idea of land owner tags and outfitter tags. Because they would be competing with other States in the Coalition for out-of-State dollars, this system would hopefully be self regulating.

5) I would recommend a strong incentive (again, draw odds) for persons who participate in "boots on the ground" wildlife projects, with each State recognizing agencies and organizations that would sponsor qualifying events.

These are just a few ideas that crossed my mind as a read the above noted thread. Notice a few things - I left out whitetail deer, bear, and possibly a few more game species. Over the last few years particularly, I have come to the conclusion that nobody really needs to kill three or more Elk in one year (even two is excessive). We all love hunting and the pursuit of game is a true passion, but in my opinion, and for the future of our passion, we all need to show a little restraint.

So, there it is. Let me have it.

I have a hard time with this because I don't really see anything that needs fixing. Except game numbers recovering in certain areas.

As a nr hunter I could fill up a hunting season every year with low point tags or otc tags in multiple states there is tons of opportunities for nr hunters if they would do some reasearch. Nr hunters are guaranteed tags in Washington, oregon,Idaho, montana,wyoming, Utah, Arizona, nevada,New Mexico, and Colorado how many more opportunities do nr need?I am sure I missed one state

if you can't find enough opportunities you are not looking to hard and just complaining or complaining because you cant draw the best tag in the state every year. Guess what residents can't either.

1. would only work for nr hunters it would be silly to think you can put the same restrictions on resident of a state just because we have good opportunities and nr want to come here to hunt but those same nr hunters can go home and shoot multiple deer in there home state.

2. I could see some youth tags added but that's a state discussion

3. Hunters in general make up around 6 percent of the population and the traveling nr hunters are probabaly closer to less then 1 percent your tax dollars likely have very little to do with public land even though many like to blow that horn and think it means something hate to break it to you but we all pay taxes even if we live in a western state.

 

[Irrelevant]

You can't pay bills or buy groceries with scenery.

Lol
Umm ... Have you been to Jackson? Leavenworth? Big Sky? Moab? Sisters? Not only can you buy groceries you can buy fancy Italian sports cars and 3rd homes on senery! Recreation is absolutely going to surpass most other economic sectors in the West, if it hasn't all ready. And that doesn't even address where my comment was really directed. People who don't need to work anymore, or can work from anywhere. Sell there house is So Cal and retire at 45 in Pinedale. #winds #greatviews #gottalovethewest

You keep getting while the getting is good, I know you will. Because it won't last. People will come and ruin it then look back at how good you have it now. Maybe you won't live to see it's demise, I hope you don't. Remind me again how good the hunting is Cali is? Because we're all on the same ride, just at different parts.

Hell, we're all f'ed, NAM ain't gonna last, we're destined to be Europe 2.0, a few elites hunting private ranches, at best if we're lucky. It'll be attacked by both ends without anyone in the middle to fight for it.

 

[seeth07]

It is hard work. It will take a lot of money. It will take a lot of commitment from hunters. Yet, that is where the focus has to be. If every person who spent time on HT arguing about R v NR allocation dedicated $2 for each hour spent here, it would be a ton of money. Not that I expect such, but I mention that to illustrate that hunters could do a lot more beneficial things with their time and money that would help wildlife.

There is a mixed message on this forum from residents of western states about this though. Non residents claim and feel they contribute significant portions of money through NR license fees, memberships to organizations, raffles, auctions, etc. all with the feel good that our money is being used to help the resource. Looks like you are preaching for more on top of that. Then when these discussion start on here, local residents blast away saying they dont need our money, they can hold their own and just pay more and what they really need is the NR to travel and help with projects and attend meetings in their state.

Honestly this is no lie, I'm donating less this year. My wife and I reviewed our budget and based on how I'm made to feel on this forum, I'm pulling back. There was $1000 we set aside to donate to organizations like Wyoming Wildlife Federation and the Wyoming Mule Deer foundation because it's a state I truly enjoy visiting and want to preserve. Instead we are spending that on raffle tags in other states since Wyoming residents apparently don't want my money to help.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

There is a mixed message on this forum from residents of western states about this though.

There are almost as many perspectives as there are individuals, and you can’t possibly characterize all hunting residents of a western town the same way; let alone county, state, or region.

Residents of ID, CO, or whatever are not compelled to have a cohesive opinion on the right amount of NR “anything”. If you think residents of western states on HT are closed minded, try the average attendee or commenter on season setting in some random western town. They give absolutely zero cares about DIY non-residents.

Sorry your feelings are hurt, but it’s no picnic in the real world. Those showing up to comment and act in favor of the resource take all manner of flak as well.

One thing I must give credit to the OP for is at least saying what he wants. It’s unrealistic, but at least it’s spelled out. At least @Trial153 admits he wants to go full send on a market rate $$$ game.

So what is it you want? The truth to come from Buzz or Blake in a sweeter font? A wholesale change in management? Tags upon tags for all? Improved habitat and access?

There are a set of realities in place that govern hunting and wildlife management. If you want those to change, wishing harder that everyone will agree with you will not work, ever. You have to show up, literally and figuratively, and even then it may not change a thing. Everyone can’t get what they want…money can do a lot, but it will never buy legitimacy.

When it’s all said and done there will be a lot more said than done.