Fixing social security

[BuzzH]

Problem with making an employer fund a 401k for someone is they have no control over it. I’d be willing to bet you the type of person that needs a fully funded employer 401k still won’t have a pot to piss in when they get old. Those people will take money out of it non stop for boats and trips and whatever else.

I agree, why there needs to be provisions that they can't take any of the employer funded contributions and interest out until retirement age.

Nobody could draw a pension until they met their Minimum Retirement Age, and that stopped the irresponsible from taking money out.

 

[BuzzH]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.


I.e., make someone else responsible for your retirement - individual contributes nothing; it's someone's else responsibility to take care of you.

I.e., make someone else responsible for your retirement - individual contributes nothing; it's someone's else responsibility to take care of you.

If I had that mindset, there is no reason to work at all. Go do what I want to do for the next 30 years and then sit back and let someone else take care of me. Live off of someone else's labor. Great, sign me up. I'll start with you. I fully expect you to send me $10K per month so that I can live comfortably when I retire next month. PM me your bank account numbers. As you keep saying, you're sitting comfortable at the moment.

Hey dummy, the only way an employee would get retirement contributions from an employer is to work...did you miss that part?

I wouldn't expect a 401 contribution from McDonald's when I work for burger king. Wouldn't expect a contribution from either of them when I didn't WORK for them.

If you worked for me, absolutely you'd get a 401 contribution.

Come on man.

 

[Derek44]

If it’s such a fairy tale world and the “only” thing hindering the struggling is their poor choices, then why all the complaints about inflation. If inflation is crippling those that make all the wise choices and higher wage earners, imagine what it’s doing to the young widow with 3 children who lost her husband to cancer and is working two minimum wage jobs to pay the “inflated” rent. Every individual in this great nation has different circumstances and just because someone is struggling and can’t contribute to a livable retirement doesn’t mean they made bad choices. Any of the individuals I know in this boat aren’t expecting everyone to pay for them to have a luxurious retirement either. They would just like to survive and live in dignity till the end. My opinion is we should do what we can as a society to help make that happen. After all, they most likely provided services that most of us have benefited from in their career choices.

 

[BuzzH]

If it’s such a fairy tale world and the “only” thing hindering the struggling is their poor choices, then why all the complaints about inflation. If inflation is crippling those that make all the wise choices and higher wage earners, imagine what it’s doing to the young widow with 3 children who lost her husband to cancer and is working two minimum wage jobs to pay the “inflated” rent. Every individual in this great nation has different circumstances and just because someone is struggling and can’t contribute to a livable retirement doesn’t mean they made bad choices. Any of the individuals I know in this boat aren’t expecting everyone to pay for them to have a luxurious retirement either. They would just like to survive and live in dignity till the end. My opinion is we should do what we can as a society to help make that happen. After all, they most likely provided services that most of us have benefited from in their career choices.

Oh no, those people should find their bootstraps, cancer was a choice and just a poor decision on their part.

 

[Alpine01]

Easy for you to say, walk a mile in someone else's shoes, report back.

Not everyone in the US have the same circumstances, abilities, etc as you do. Choices are pretty limited for a lot of people for a lot of valid reasons. You must live in a pretty special place to not know hard working people struggling. Surely they are not making bad decisions and living the high life. I know some of those people, friends of mine even.

I guess too f'ing bad for them, let's take their SS, let them work until they die, and call it a day.

Like I said the callousness is what I find most offensive, and it's always from those that should know better.

Ha. My parents were just above the poverty line their entire life. I have worked since the age of 12. Worked my ass off in school to get good grades (yep - one of those nerds you likely made fun of throughout elementary and high school), paid my own way through college through summer job savings, partial academic scholarships, working in college and school loans. Parents couldn't afford to pay for a plane ticket so I could come home for Christmas so I stayed at school and celebrated on my own. Paid off every school loan without a single bitch about it. Lived paycheck to paycheck for the first 15 yrs to get out of school debt and squirrel away money for my retirement. Drove a 1986 Toyota pickup for 22 yrs, basic model, 2-wheel drive, no AC. I have owned two new cars in my life, kept the first for 22 yrs, kept the second for 20. Didn't buy boats, ATVs, grown-up toys, etc. Took a driving vacation once every 4-5 years just to see another state. Now I get to reap the benefits of all that hard work.

So yeah, I lived in a real special place. Thank you very much. Sheesh, talk about arrogance. Thanks for the enlightend conversation, it too was special.

 

[Nick87]

Nobody could draw a pension until they met their Minimum Retirement Age, and that stopped the irresponsible from taking money

If half the guys in the trades I know could take out of their pension, I guarantee you they wouldn't have enough for beer money when they got to 60. Myself included probably when I was in my 20's. Thank God I couldnt.

 

[BuzzH]

Ha. My parents were just above the poverty line their entire life. I have worked since the age of 12. Worked my ass off in school to get good grades (yep - one of those nerds you likely made fun of throughout elementary and high school), paid my own way through college through summer job savings, partial academic scholarships, working in college and school loans. Parents couldn't afford to pay for a plane ticket so I could come home for Christmas so I stayed at school and celebrated on my own. Paid off every school loan without a single bitch about it. Lived paycheck to paycheck for the first 15 yrs to get out of school debt and squirrel away money for my retirement. Drove a 1986 Toyota pickup for 22 yrs, basic model, 2-wheel drive, no AC. I have owned two new cars in my life, kept the first for 22 yrs, kept the second for 20. Didn't buy boats, ATVs, grown-up toys, etc. Took a driving vacation once every 4-5 years just to see another state. Now I get to reap the benefits of all that hard work.

So yeah, I lived in a real special place. Thank you very much. Sheesh, talk about arrogance. Thanks for the enlightend conversation, it too was special.

Like I said, you should know better than the callousness you show toward others that would have traded you places in a heartbeat during all your "hard years".

Your story isn't anything special, you aren't the first person that paid for their own college, or drove a shitty vehicle, or had very middle class parents. Get over it, BTDT myself. Why I care about those that don't have it as well as I do. Why I still think everyone should be able to retire. Why I think ss needs to stay solvent so they can.

Reread your story and try to remember where you came from, if you dare.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Any thread lasting 25 pages, will have several tangents.

Regarding the covid tangent. With hindsight, most can agree that the PPP included money that was stolen, wasted and also benefited many people. Any time there is significant money involved, the grifters and crooks are drawn to it a like a moth to a flame. It will always be so.

What can't ever know, is how would it have turned out if Uncle Sam stayed out of the response to covid. We did not live that scenario, so any judgement is entirely conjecture. That frees up people to just run wild with their opinion.

I've tried to cut slack in every direction concerning covid. We were flying blind, at first. It has affected every person on the planet, in some way. We all have our own covid chapter in our lives.

The median wealth of households aged 65-74 is $409.9k. That means they have their home paid off and maybe ~$100k in other assets. Half of families have less than this. I think we could agree, that would not allow people to stop working, without SS.

Pensions have disappeared largely from private employers. There is much to like from a company's point of view to going to a defined contribution plan. Their cost is known, limited, and voluntary on their part. Another vulnerable part of private employer pensions is that the company may well go bankrupt before their pension obligations are fulfilled. That is a large reason Uncle Sam oversees private pensions, since they have built a backstop for when a company fails to meet its pension obligation.

Way back at the beginning, I said that in the coming years, we will realize that 401k and IRA plans will prove to come up quite short in funding retirements for most Americans. Many things have changed since I began working. One thing a company pension did is put golden handcuffs on employees. It does not take long to realize that if you stick to the job, there is something big for you at the finish line.

Now, with so few companies offering a defined benefit pension, employees are much more inclined to job hop. One result of this is interrupted savings toward retirement. I do think in 30 years, give or take, there are going to be millions of Americans, old, unable to work, and financially strapped. I hope I'm wrong.

Happy Easter once again

401ks dont "come up short" people fall short on replacing their income and properly investing enough.

 

[Derek44]

Ha. My parents were just above the poverty line their entire life. I have worked since the age of 12. Worked my ass off in school to get good grades (yep - one of those nerds you likely made fun of throughout elementary and high school), paid my own way through college through summer job savings, partial academic scholarships, working in college and school loans. Parents couldn't afford to pay for a plane ticket so I could come home for Christmas so I stayed at school and celebrated on my own. Paid off every school loan without a single bitch about it. Lived paycheck to paycheck for the first 15 yrs to get out of school debt and squirrel away money for my retirement. Drove a 1986 Toyota pickup for 22 yrs, basic model, 2-wheel drive, no AC. I have owned two new cars in my life, kept the first for 22 yrs, kept the second for 20. Didn't buy boats, ATVs, grown-up toys, etc. Took a driving vacation once every 4-5 years just to see another state. Now I get to reap the benefits of all that hard work.

So yeah, I lived in a real special place. Thank you very much. Sheesh, talk about arrogance. Thanks for the enlightend conversation, it too was special.

For starters, I’m very happy for you and glad that you were able to live a productive, sustainable life and have some leftover for your later years.

Interesting nuance to your story though is by the situation you laid out, I would guess with 99% certainty that the student loans you speak of were govt. subsidized so the taxpayer helped you out there.

Sounds that even though not a kush life, you were one of the lucky ones that escaped without catastrophe.

And I’m pretty sure that a portion of those benefits from all that hard work include SS and Medicare.

Therefore in my opinion, it’s just heartlessness that allows your mind to think that you deserve it but the next individual does not.

The benefits from SS are directly related to one’s working and contributing through life. Not one individual to my knowledge is “legally” drawing on those benefits that did not contribute into them.

 

[BuzzH]

401ks dont "come up short" people fall short on replacing their income and properly investing enough.

Right, because low wage earners really have the disposal income to invest.

Let's see...rent, insurance, food, clothes...$20/hour.

Do I starve, run around nekid, or live under a bridge so I can save more for retirement?

 

[Alpine01]

Like I said, you should know better than the callousness you show toward others that would have traded you places in a heartbeat during all your "hard years".

Your story isn't anything special, you aren't the first person that paid for their own college, or drove a shitty vehicle, or had very middle class parents. Get over it, BTDT myself.

Reread your story and try to remember where you came from, if you dare.

You're right, my story isn't anything special. Anybody could do it. Most choose not to.

I know exactly where I came from and that is why I respect individual responsibility. I have no problem helping others when it is done by my choice, do it all the time. Charities, volunteer work, taking care of my and my wife's parents. I have huge problems when others feel they have the right to demand that from me absent my choice.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Add in the costs of nurturing and financing a family with children and the hill is steep. Teenager's orthodontist bill takes priority over investment for retirement. It's a common budget dilema for many ... if not most parents.

 

[BuzzH]

Your right, my story isn't anything special. Anybody could do it. Most choose not to.

I know exactly where I came from and that is why I respect individual responsibility. I have no problem helping others when it is done by my choice, do it all the time. Charities, volunteer work, taking care of my and my wife's parents. I have huge problems when others feel they have the right to demand that from me absent my choice.

*You're

No, not everybody could do it.

Plenty of people that are likely more personally responsible than you, due to no fault of their own, can't retire without SS.

Where are their "choices"?

 

[BuzzH]

Add in the costs of nurturing and financing a family with children and the hill is steep. Teenager's orthodontist bill takes priority over investment for retirement. It's a common budget dilema for many ... if not most parents.

I don't know why otherwise educated people can't see that?

I seem to want to leave this right here, how does the person in this example save "more" for retirement?

 

[Alpine01]

For starters, I’m very happy for you and glad that you were able to live a productive, sustainable life and have some leftover for your later years.

Interesting nuance to your story though is by the situation you laid out, I would guess with 99% certainty that the student loans you speak of were govt. subsidized so the taxpayer helped you out there.

Sounds that even though not a kush life, you were one of the lucky ones that escaped without catastrophe.

And I’m pretty sure that a portion of those benefits from all that hard work include SS and Medicare.

Therefore in my opinion, it’s just heartlessness that allows your mind to think that you deserve it but the next individual does not.

The benefits from SS are directly related to one’s working and contributing through life. Not one individual to my knowledge is “legally” drawing on those benefits that did not contribute into them.

Interesting comments.

The loans were Sallie Mae if I recall correctly. But the old version of Sallie and I was paying anywhere from 8-10% interest so not exactly cheap either. I think the current loan system is criminal and there is collusion between the lenders and the universities. Universities could increase tuition by 15-20% a year and reap huge financial benefits and lenders (loan sharks to be accurate) were there to sign up the innocents walking onto campus to fund it and skim off huge returns as well. Rather than forgive student loans and place that on the backs of taxpayers, go after the lenders and universities. The working guy that went to a trade school and has no debt, or the young farmer that is starting out on their own or continuing to run the family farm shouldn't be the ones paying for the scam that is student loans. Just my opine though.

Luck has little to do with it. Conscious decisions coupled with hard work. Luck is not a plan. If you can't take the time and effort to plan for your future, that failing is on you.

Haven't got SS yet - still need to wait another 8 yrs, assuming the age doesn't go up yet again. That said, like BuzzH, SS is icing, never expected to see it, not relying on it. Not clear I will take Medicaid, other options exist.

I haven't claimed I deserve anything. I only expect to benefit from what I have earned.

BuzzH has mentioned I want to deprive folks of their SS. Never made that statement other than as a suggestion to phase it out with graduated benefits and pathways to make up the difference that are more sustainable over the long-term than what SS is now. Go back and re-read the post. I haven't seen much of a plan from BuzzH other than to make someone else pay for it.

Lots of waste, fraud, and abuse in entitlement programs. Whether it be on the USG side or the private industry side. Where there are large sums of money involved, there will be those looking to scam the system. That is not what this conversation is about but would make a great parallel thread.

 

[Alpine01]

*You're

Thanks for the edit.

 

[Derek44]

Interesting comments.

The loans were Sallie Mae if I recall correctly. But the old version of Sallie and I was paying anywhere from 8-10% interest so not exactly cheap either. I think the current loan system is criminal and there is collusion between the lenders and the universities. Universities could increase tuition by 15-20% a year and reap huge financial benefits and lenders (loan sharks to be accurate) were there to sign up the innocents walking onto campus to fund it and skim off huge returns as well. Rather than forgive student loans and place that on the backs of taxpayers, go after the lenders and universities. The working guy that went to a trade school and has no debt, or the young farmer that is starting out on their own or continuing to run the family farm shouldn't be the ones paying for the scam that is student loans. Just my opine though.

Luck has little to do with it. Conscious decisions coupled with hard work. Luck is not a plan. If you can't take the time and effort to plan for your future, that failing is on you.

Haven't got SS yet - still need to wait another 8 yrs, assuming the age doesn't go up yet again. That said, like BuzzH, SS is icing, never expected to see it, not relying on it. Not clear I will take Medicaid, other options exist.

I haven't claimed I deserve anything. I only expect to benefit from what I have earned.

BuzzH has mentioned I want to deprive folks of their SS. Never made that statement other than as a suggestion to phase it out with graduated benefits and pathways to make up the difference that are more sustainable over the long-term than what SS is now. Go back and re-read the post. I haven't seen much of a plan from BuzzH other than to make someone else pay for it.

Lots of waste, fraud, and abuse in entitlement programs. Whether it be on the USG side or the private industry side. Where there are large sums of money involved, there will be those looking to scam the system. That is not what this conversation is about but would make a great parallel thread.

Great response. I appreciate it. Not a rebuttal per se, but I do have to disagree that luck had nothing to do with it. People don’t get debilitating diseases or encounter freak accidents by choice. Referencing the hypothetical scenario in my earlier post, that young widow mother that lost her husband to cancer did not make that choice. She was unlucky. That’s what I was referencing.

 

[Alpine01]

Great response. I appreciate it. Not a rebuttal per se, but I do have to disagree that luck had nothing to do with it. People don’t get debilitating diseases or encounter freak accidents by choice. Referencing the hypothetical scenario in my earlier post, that young widow mother that lost her husband to cancer did not make that choice. She was unlucky. That’s what I was referencing.

Thanks. Nope, life is going to throw curve balls at you. It's not about being fair or unfair. It just "is".

But take the widow example. It takes literally a few 10's of cents a day to put life insurance in place to cover the loss of a partner's income so that the widow doesn't have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to survive or not risk losing their home because she can't pay the mortgage. As a husband and father, why wouldn't your first priority be to take care of your family if something were to happen to you (cancer, freak accident) and they lost your income? Surely the husband/father could give up one beer a week to do that. What choice did he make? What was his plan?

 

[Marshian]

I think a lot of the disagreement between Buzz and Alpine and their respective viewpoints held by many others ultimately comes back to basic psychology. Its well known that negative experiences hold much greater weight in people’s minds and memory than ultimately more frequent positive ones.

So Alpine may cling to the highly distasteful notion of poor decision making and buying trucks, vacations, being a deadbeat, etc. And this may very well be the minority situation. It does catch headlines and some politicians’ mouths (at least on conservative sites) versus hearing about the hard working family man cut down by illness or accident. That isn’t as flashy overall.

Ultimately I am with Buzz in that society will not tolerate multitudes of homeless, elderly. Younger ones in the throes of drug abuse and poor mental health is bad enough but part of me does default to they made their bed... But sober, sound minded old folks being out on the street seems too harsh.

 

[Alpine01]

Add in the costs of nurturing and financing a family with children and the hill is steep. Teenager's orthodontist bill takes priority over investment for retirement. It's a common budget dilema for many ... if not most parents.

Yep, been there, done that, Still made it work. Family always came first. As a parent, that is your #1 job and responsibility.