First Test With Hammers.

[Panda Bear]

I'll admit I still chase speed. My biggest obstacle when loading monos was dropping bullet weight from what I thought I should be using. mtmuley

my grandfather is not here at the moment, so I will ask you if I am understanding this correctly.

Are you saying that if I used Hammers 162 gr bullet at a faster speed, it will match or exceed the 250 gr Woodleigh I am using now ( when I say match, not just accuracy but damage to the bear--I dont care about meat damage, I just want them down) Thank you

 

[Europe]

my grandfather is not here at the moment, so I will ask you if I am understanding this correctly.

Are you saying that if I used Hammers 162 gr bullet at a faster speed, it will match or exceed the 250 gr Woodleigh I am using now ( when I say match, not just accuracy but damage to the bear--I dont care about meat damage, I just want them down) Thank you

mtmuley and others are far more knowledgable than I but the short answer is yes !

I know you have had good success with the 250 grain, but I think you would be pleasantly surprised at how well the 162 would work. The added advantage would be the increased distance and less recoil. I have never used Hammer so this is not a comparison recommendation, but Swift makes 200 gr A Frames ( special order ) and I would use those before the 250 Woodleigh.

but I will close in the same manner I opened. Listen to mtmuley and others here as my knowledge and thoughts are dated, at best.

 

[Don Fischer]

When I was younger and dumber, not that I’m much smarter now. I’ve definitely chased some speed, probably at the expense of a some reduced barrel life and enough components to put another kid thru college. Fwiw of the 6 rifles I’m shooting regularly right now, half are running loads that are 50-100 FPS slower than what “people” say they are getting. The data don’t lie. it sounds like hammers shoot no matter what, if speed was my goal and I only planned to shoot 400 I would just load to pressure and back off a couple tenths, why do a ladder test? Even a 2 moa load Will have a 100% probability of hitting the vitals of deer size game at that range with the correct dope.

You guy's make me wonder what a rifle chambered to shoot mono bullet's could do with them. What makes me think that is a 7mm Rem Mag I had many years ago. Found that I wanted to shoot 160gr bullets in it but couldn't get the accuracy from them. 140gr bullet's shot lights out but pretty much blew apart when hitting an animal from it. At that time I reasoned that the cause was the 140gr bullet was seated with the base of the bullet even with the junction of the neck and shoulder. So took that rifle to a gunsmith and had the throat let out so I could seat the 160gr bullet the same way. The result was the rifle started shooting 5/8" groups consistently and, the powder charge went up. Max went from 67.0 grs N205 to 69.0 grs. Days were before anyone had a chronograph so no idea what happened with velocity.

If you think about it, the mono bullets the same weight as lead core bullets have to be longer. Therefore to seat them in the chamber means you'd have to seat then deeper in the case. Get around that by dropping in weight and then your bullet is not seated as deep into the case. Wonder if it would work to make the longer mono bullet shoot better if it was loaded the same as a lead core bullet? My 6.5x06 takes lead core bullet's loaded to the junction of the neck and shoulder, shoot's 1/2" and below at 100yds. With 140gr SMK shot from a rest at 500yds I got 3" group's with it. I had the chamber reamed to get that 140gr bullet, actually a 140gr Partition, same as I had that 7mm Rem Mag. At 100yds from a rest it shot 140gr Partitions into just under 3/4", best I've ever seen Partitions shoot by a long shot!

And if you think about it, most reloader's believe best accuracy come's from the bullet just back of the lands a bit. Could be but what if the real reason was how deep the bullet was seated in the case? A heavy mono bullet, .090" off the throat and a light mono bullet seated the same way are both off the lands .090" but, the light bullet is seated shallower in the case!

 

[Don Fischer]

my grandfather is not here at the moment, so I will ask you if I am understanding this correctly.

Are you saying that if I used Hammers 162 gr bullet at a faster speed, it will match or exceed the 250 gr Woodleigh I am using now ( when I say match, not just accuracy but damage to the bear--I dont care about meat damage, I just want them down) Thank you

Somehow I don't think a 162gr bullet of any kind will catch a 250gr bullet. I'm thinking of Nosler here, I talked to them one time wondering the % of weight their bonded bullet would maintain. They told me "same as the partition, 70%". Well if you think the 250gr Woodleigh might also maintain 70% then at some point the bullet will lose enough weight to actually be down to 175grs which is still heavier than 162grs. But does it actually expend that much before exiting of stopping? Not a clue! My attitude has always been if I have something that works well, stick with it!

BTW. I fired some 160 gr Speer Hot Cores out an old 7mm Rem Mag I had into newspaper at 100yds and they maintained 84% of their weight. If the 250 Woodleigh could do that the 175gr weight retention would go up to 210grs!

 

[brockel]

my grandfather is not here at the moment, so I will ask you if I am understanding this correctly.

Are you saying that if I used Hammers 162 gr bullet at a faster speed, it will match or exceed the 250 gr Woodleigh I am using now ( when I say match, not just accuracy but damage to the bear--I dont care about meat damage, I just want them down) Thank you

Just an educated guess here but odds are with the velocity you can get with the 162 grain mono its going to exit nearly every single time same as the 250 woodleigh. Difference is the 162 is going to have a lot more velocity which typically causes more damage.

 

[Europe]

Listen to these fellows Panda !!

AND : Apologizes to the OP

 

[Panda Bear]

Somehow I don't think a 162gr bullet of any kind will catch a 250gr bullet. I'm thinking of Nosler here, I talked to them one time wondering the % of weight their bonded bullet would maintain. They told me "same as the partition, 70%". Well if you think the 250gr Woodleigh might also maintain 70% then at some point the bullet will lose enough weight to actually be down to 175grs which is still heavier than 162grs. But does it actually expend that much before exiting of stopping? Not a clue! My attitude has always been if I have something that works well, stick with it!

BTW. I fired some 160 gr Speer Hot Cores out an old 7mm Rem Mag I had into newspaper at 100yds and they maintained 84% of their weight. If the 250 Woodleigh could do that the 175gr weight retention would go up to 210grs!

this is the thought process of my grandfather who does the reloading for us and also subscribes to the adage, if its not broke dont fix it. thank you

Just an educated guess here but odds are with the velocity you can get with the 162 grain mono its going to exit nearly every single time same as the 250 woodleigh. Difference is the 162 is going to have a lot more velocity which typically causes more damage.

thank you,

I thank you both (Don Fisher and brockel) and mtmuley as well, for the info he sent via pm

and yes----apologizes to the OP. I should have started a different thread

 

[Qubo]

and yes----apologizes to the OP. I should have started a different thread

Hey don’t be sorry. As a novice reloader and not really versed at all on the technical parts of precision rifles, shooting, and ammo I appreciate all this discusion. I grew up just shooting any old box of ammo out of any old rifle and even now only shoot for hunting purposes. I only started reloading because I’m a tinkerer and like building custom things. Don’t really need the precision for my hunting style.

I really appreciate all the quick responses guys. Really been a lot of help and given me a lot to think about. I think with the component shortage and my range being an hour away I may just load up some 69.5-70 and shoot some groups. Chrono them as well, as long as no one thinks my MagnetoSpeed will affect groups? I know it affects impact but underr the thought that groups were still the same. I also just drew a limited archery elk tag here in CO so really need to spend most my time with my bow. But, I’m definetly keeping this info in mind and may try upping the speed/charge when components and free time are more available.
Thanks!

 

[Panda Bear]

Hey don’t be sorry. As a novice reloader and not really versed at all on the technical parts of precision rifles, shooting, and ammo I appreciate all this discusion. I grew up just shooting any old box of ammo out of any old rifle and even now only shoot for hunting purposes. I only started reloading because I’m a tinkerer and like building custom things. Don’t really need the precision for my hunting style.

I really appreciate all the quick responses guys. Really been a lot of help and given me a lot to think about. I think with the component shortage and my range being an hour away I may just load up some 69.5-70 and shoot some groups. Chrono them as well, as long as no one thinks my MagnetoSpeed will affect groups? I know it affects impact but underr the thought that groups were still the same. I also just drew a limited archery elk tag here in CO so really need to spend most my time with my bow. But, I’m definetly keeping this info in mind and may try upping the speed/charge when components and free time are more available.
Thanks!

thank you.

and thank you Don, Brockel, mtmuley and April. Received more information from April that zeroed in on the points Don and Brockel made in their posts. She explained in more detail about the speed you fellows brought to my attention. She was still pushing the 200 Swift Lever Action bullet as possibly the best of both worlds ( 162 hammer and 250 wood leigh )

If any of you gentlemen have an opinion about the 200 gr swift a frame bullet for a 348 ,I would appreciate hearing it--with Qubo,s permission

 

[brockel]

Hey don’t be sorry. As a novice reloader and not really versed at all on the technical parts of precision rifles, shooting, and ammo I appreciate all this discusion. I grew up just shooting any old box of ammo out of any old rifle and even now only shoot for hunting purposes. I only started reloading because I’m a tinkerer and like building custom things. Don’t really need the precision for my hunting style.

I really appreciate all the quick responses guys. Really been a lot of help and given me a lot to think about. I think with the component shortage and my range being an hour away I may just load up some 69.5-70 and shoot some groups. Chrono them as well, as long as no one thinks my MagnetoSpeed will affect groups? I know it affects impact but underr the thought that groups were still the same. I also just drew a limited archery elk tag here in CO so really need to spend most my time with my bow. But, I’m definetly keeping this info in mind and may try upping the speed/charge when components and free time are more available.
Thanks!

From my experience the magneto speed won’t affect accuracy but will group in a different spot from where it will without the magneto speed

 

[Randi]

Somehow I don't think a 162gr bullet of any kind will catch a 250gr bullet. I'm thinking of Nosler here, I talked to them one time wondering the % of weight their bonded bullet would maintain. They told me "same as the partition, 70%". Well if you think the 250gr Woodleigh might also maintain 70% then at some point the bullet will lose enough weight to actually be down to 175grs which is still heavier than 162grs. But does it actually expend that much before exiting of stopping? Not a clue! My attitude has always been if I have something that works well, stick with it!

BTW. I fired some 160 gr Speer Hot Cores out an old 7mm Rem Mag I had into newspaper at 100yds and they maintained 84% of their weight. If the 250 Woodleigh could do that the 175gr weight retention would go up to 210grs!

Just an educated guess here but odds are with the velocity you can get with the 162 grain mono its going to exit nearly every single time same as the 250 woodleigh. Difference is the 162 is going to have a lot more velocity which typically causes more damage.

We agree with these two men. Speed is good but the 162 is not going to catch up to the 250 or in our opinion do any more damage, with the possible exception of added "shock". The bullet April is selling is a good one, as the 200 would possibly add some speed without losing as much weight. Also the lever action bullets Swift makes specifically for lever actions are good ones. We do not have a 348, but they work good in our other levers.

Also, it is rumored that Sitka, may reopen Alaska Bullet works and if they do, they also made a 200 for a 348.

 

[Don Fischer]

We agree with these two men. Speed is good but the 162 is not going to catch up to the 250 or in our opinion do any more damage, with the possible exception of added "shock". The bullet April is selling is a good one, as the 200 would possibly add some speed without losing as much weight. Also the lever action bullets Swift makes specifically for lever actions are good ones. We do not have a 348, but they work good in our other levers.

Also, it is rumored that Sitka, may reopen Alaska Bullet works and if they do, they also made a 200 for a 348.

One of the thing's to think about matching a mono bullet of any weight or velocity against a lead core bullet is secondary projectiles. As the lead core bullet pernitrates' it continues to expand and bit's of lead get torn off. Those bit's fly and do damage elsewhere. I have read that mono bullet's don't tear things up as bad as lead core and that has to be because they only open so far and unless they loose a petal, no bit's fly off. At least that's what I would guess. I suspect if you took a lead core bullet and mono bullet of the same weight, the lead core bullet would do more damage inside as the bullet's continues to expand and get slowed by that expansion. Probably both bullet's would also exit unless the lead core was a very fragile bullet. Then the lead core would probably simply come apart at some point and expend itself inside the animal.

 

[mtmuley]

The petals on Hammer bullets shear in most instances. The larger than caliber shank keeps penetrating. mtmuley

 

[Doublecluck]

The petals on Hammer bullets shear in most instances. The larger than caliber shank keeps penetrating. mtmuley

I was hesitant to comment because my thoughts would only be in theory as I have no real world experience shooting dangerous game but after studying the bullet designs and running the possible ballistic numbers I think they are very close but would favor the hammer. I suppose the real question one would need to answer is

Stopping power is a product of tissue damage/bone destruction and energy/mass displaced over vital area- the impact energy of both bullets would be very close, but would the extra velocity the hammer carried along with bullet design provide for more expansion? a bigger wound channel along with transferring more of the bullets energy to the animal would equal greater stopping power. I’m going with the hammer based on the bullet design performing better with the increased velocity. any energy a bullet carries after leaving the animal is useless and I think the hammer would leave more energy in the animal while still providing a exit would.

It’s a interesting topic

 

[mtmuley]

I double lunged a whitetail buck at about 120 yards if I remember with an 80 grain Hammer in .243 Winchester. A couple of the sheared petals ripped through his heart. mtmuley

 

[jryoung]

The larger than caliber shank keeps penetrating.

I've heard that before.

 

[mtmuley]

I've heard that before.

Plenty of terminal performance testimony and testing in various media to be found. Some from members right here. mtmuley

 

[cahunter805]

Qubo
Your results are a good start but I’d be interested in what the target looked like also. Based upon your info I would load the following test groups and test it for velocity/group size.
69.3,69.6,69.9,70.2

 

[Europe]

I try to stay away from these topics as my knowledge and up to date information is dated, at best, but a couple of fellows have asked why I keep pushing the Swift

IMHO, the dialog on this thread in regards to which bullet Panda Bear should use in her 348 is not specifically just about Swift, Woodleigh and Hammer, as we are talking about three different types of bullets and three different bullet weights for an unusual caliber/rifle for a specific type of hunting.

First let me say a friend of mine did call Steve at Hammer and his reaction was very positive. He thought he was very knowledgable, honest, forthcoming and pleasant. Steve also recently used his bullets to knock down a dozen or more Africa plains game animals. They work !!! Also several members of the forum have used them successfully and like them. From everything I have learned they are a better bullet than those produced by GSC. And in fact, Panda, I would recommend you ( or your husband or grandfather ) speak to Steve about bullets from Hammer, for your 275 H & H. His bullets out of that rifle would be a good combination for your sheep, goat, caribou hunts.

Back to the 348. The bottom line , in my mind, for you---- should be which make of bullet --- weight of bullet--- shot from a 348 lever action rifle, gives you the most confidence when one of those big bodies animals that you hunt ( polar bear, moose, bison, muskox ) are staring (or charging) at you from 25 to 50 yards away.

162 Hammer, 200 Swift, 250 Woodleigh ???

I openly admit I am somewhat stuck in the past. I liked the Bitteroot, so I like the Swift. The Woodleigh picks up where Kynoch left off and are a very good time and animal tested bullet.

If I was going to experiment with something new for the 348 it would be either the 200 Swift A frame, made specifically for the lever rifle, or I would head to CEB and try either their 175 copper Raptor or brass Rapture--or--the 200 gr copper solid or 200 grain copper safari. All four of those bullets are made specifically for a 348

In closing dont forget I still think the 64 Pontiac was a good muscle car, Linda, Elvis and Bobby had pure voices, that the 300 H & H was the perfect mid caliber, caliber, and that Hunting Wife and I prefer a bottle of El Grifo Canari after our dessert, thank you very much-------so, as you can see I am stuck in "yesteryear". Which on some days is not a bad place to be

 

[Panda Bear]

Thank you April.

A friend of my grandfathers used Cutting Edge Bullets on his last trip to Africa and said they performed very well.

However; you, Don Fisher and my grandfather make a good point. If its not broke dont fix it. The 348/250 Woodleighs have kept me alive thus far, why trifle with success