Endangered Grizzly Bear Photo Thread
- Thread starter BigHornRam
- Start date
is there a thread on this that I am missing?
If not, do share please.
lonedave
Well-known member
Hey Gomer, I'm sitting here at my daughter and son-in-laws in Chandler for a week. Anywhere close I could go try to find a couple of deserts to look at? I was thinking of heading over to the Superstitions for a day trip if I get a chance.
If you don’t mind crowds and hot girls in yoga pants, and desert bighorns try Monument or Hogg Canyon by Gold Canyon. If you want a little more seclusion, PM me for a few other ideas.
Jules Winnfield
Well-known member
Don't google "700 Club for Sheep Hunting"....I stumbled across some hunting podcast where the guest had "completed it". Of course I had to dig in more about it. In a nutshell, you shoot all 4 species of sheep, and if the total B&C or SCI score of all four sheep total at least 700 inches, you get in! Arguably one of the most contrived, stupid, unnecessary clubs to exist. When I first saw it I was trying to figure out how the bible-thumper "700 Club" show was tied to sheep hunting, but it is just a dumb coincidence. There is mention of it in this article: https://www.boone-crockett.org/washingtons-new-bighorn-state-record.
I guess I am just post-hunting season surly, and watching two decades of applying yield nada for MGS tags makes me rant a bit more.
Labman
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2015
- Messages
- 614
To Grey’s credit I received a very nice, lengthy, and well written response to my email from him today. It was much appreciated to get a reply since I don’t think most CEO’s would do that. I see both sides, the “it was a legal ram” side, and the “it was a 4.5yr old dink”. I respect the other view, but mine hasn’t changed. It was a dink and should be dodging cars on the highway right now. Bottom line is that the definition of a legal 3/4 curl ram should change. If it is all about the hunt and not the harvest, then why on earth is a 4yr old ram legal?
Last edited:
520 Road Sow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2017
- Messages
- 6,818
Yeah I got the same canned response to as others.
Is what it is I guess. I'm moving on to 22.
520 Road Sow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2017
- Messages
- 6,818
Thank you very much for your email and comments on Craig Boddington’s “Is That My Ram?” article, and in particular, his wife Donna’s Montana Unlimited ram, in our winter 2021/22 issue of Wild Sheep®.
As a Montana Unlimited hunter myself, and one who values, cherishes, supports, and promulgates to other state agencies this incredible “opportunity for all” privilege as a model (in appropriate areas) that they should consider, I take your comments very much to heart.
Admittedly, when I first saw Craig’s photos on social media, I too paused questioning if the ram was legal as it did appear possibly less than ¾ curl to my eyes from the angle in the photos. I checked my concern however in the trust that Montana FWP officials would not plug a sublegal ram for anyone – most especially a high-profile writer (or spouse of same) who no doubt could share photos of the ram broadly. I also checked my concern in the presumption that neither Craig nor the outfitter would risk their livelihoods taking a sublegal ram. Nor, would either even remotely consider sharing photos of it near and far.
On further review I learned that the ram was checked by a MT FWP Game Warden, plugged, and that the ram’s age was estimated at 4.5 years old. After consulting with an expert FWP sheep biologist, I also learned that he was unaware of a Beartooth/Absaroka four-year old ram not being of legal size.
As a guide I used my friend Robert Anderson’s handwritten note to me as I embarked on my sheep hunting journey of “any ram is a good ram.” I also used my very good friend and sheep hunting mentor Jack Atcheson Jr.’s mantra of “in the Unlimited area there are only two types of rams – legal and not” as the test.
So, my editorial comments are based on one premise only – that this is a legal ram by Montana FWP standards as state wildlife officials viewed the actual ram, not photos, checked it, plugged it, and determined it legal. Their decision was also reviewed and affirmed by their expert peers.
After receiving your email, I reread Craig’s article and reflected on my hunting as well as sheep hunting journey. I do not come from a hunting family, it was not until after graduating from college and soliciting a Xerox client of mine as a hunting mentor, that I realized a childhood dream to hunt. My first big game animal was a pronghorn in Wyoming, not the size buck I would take today but I beamed with pride on doing this on my own in 1986 and savored the fine meat it provided my family and friends. My first sheep hunt was by backpack in 2000 in Alaska, I passed on a “just legal” ram on day two, then passed that same ram again on my seventh and final day knowing I would go home empty handed. My choice but I felt that ram should stay on the mountain, and it was not until 13 years later that I took my first.
As I reread Craig’s article and considered some criticism it has fostered, I wondered if a 12-year-old boy or girl had taken the ram would there be the same concern? Or, if this ram was taken by a wounded warrior would there be similar angst? Again, my litmus test is that it was determined by FWP legal. I also feel it is not my place to judge another hunter’s view of their own success.
As a conservationist any harvest must be defensible. Years back legal in some Montana Unlimited areas was “any ram.” Wyoming’s law currently is “any ram” and where and when appropriate we also allow ewe harvest as a management tool of our precious bighorn resource. Regardless, I respect our current ¾ curl minimum.
In my opinion Craig’s article offers a refreshing change from the “I took the biggest” or “I spent the most and therefore I am entitled the best” we often feed and are fed of late. It is honest, self-reflective, challenges our personal views, decisions, and ethos, and captures the uncertainty of “should I take the shot or not?” It also addresses well the fact that it is not the outfitter, or guide, and not your spouse or hunting partner, but rather the hunter alone who owns this decision.
The previous 2019-2020 season saw an atypical number of Unlimited rams taken beyond the quota, and rumblings and assertions of late check-ins being allowed as the cause. I made some inquires and learned that some courtesy citations were written but that the hunters had called in their harvest within 48 hours and their tardiness in arriving in person did not affect the quota status.
Like you, I cherish this Unlimited opportunity and will do all I can to protect it. After being blessed with an Unlimited ram in 2014 my seven years wait expired this year. Will I take another ram even if seeing a legal one? I’m not sure, but I will go back into the Unlimited areas to hunt sheep as this Montana “opportunity for all” regardless of one’s financial stature makes it so special.
Again, thank you for your sincere and thoughtful comments and most especially for your support of Wild Sheep Foundation and wild sheep conservation.
Respectfully and sincerely,
Gray N. Thornton, President & CEO
Wild Sheep Foundation
412 Pronghorn Trail
Bozeman, MT 59718
406-404-8750
Summit Life Member
Chadwick Ram Society Member
Legacy Society
As a Montana Unlimited hunter myself, and one who values, cherishes, supports, and promulgates to other state agencies this incredible “opportunity for all” privilege as a model (in appropriate areas) that they should consider, I take your comments very much to heart.
Admittedly, when I first saw Craig’s photos on social media, I too paused questioning if the ram was legal as it did appear possibly less than ¾ curl to my eyes from the angle in the photos. I checked my concern however in the trust that Montana FWP officials would not plug a sublegal ram for anyone – most especially a high-profile writer (or spouse of same) who no doubt could share photos of the ram broadly. I also checked my concern in the presumption that neither Craig nor the outfitter would risk their livelihoods taking a sublegal ram. Nor, would either even remotely consider sharing photos of it near and far.
On further review I learned that the ram was checked by a MT FWP Game Warden, plugged, and that the ram’s age was estimated at 4.5 years old. After consulting with an expert FWP sheep biologist, I also learned that he was unaware of a Beartooth/Absaroka four-year old ram not being of legal size.
As a guide I used my friend Robert Anderson’s handwritten note to me as I embarked on my sheep hunting journey of “any ram is a good ram.” I also used my very good friend and sheep hunting mentor Jack Atcheson Jr.’s mantra of “in the Unlimited area there are only two types of rams – legal and not” as the test.
So, my editorial comments are based on one premise only – that this is a legal ram by Montana FWP standards as state wildlife officials viewed the actual ram, not photos, checked it, plugged it, and determined it legal. Their decision was also reviewed and affirmed by their expert peers.
After receiving your email, I reread Craig’s article and reflected on my hunting as well as sheep hunting journey. I do not come from a hunting family, it was not until after graduating from college and soliciting a Xerox client of mine as a hunting mentor, that I realized a childhood dream to hunt. My first big game animal was a pronghorn in Wyoming, not the size buck I would take today but I beamed with pride on doing this on my own in 1986 and savored the fine meat it provided my family and friends. My first sheep hunt was by backpack in 2000 in Alaska, I passed on a “just legal” ram on day two, then passed that same ram again on my seventh and final day knowing I would go home empty handed. My choice but I felt that ram should stay on the mountain, and it was not until 13 years later that I took my first.
As I reread Craig’s article and considered some criticism it has fostered, I wondered if a 12-year-old boy or girl had taken the ram would there be the same concern? Or, if this ram was taken by a wounded warrior would there be similar angst? Again, my litmus test is that it was determined by FWP legal. I also feel it is not my place to judge another hunter’s view of their own success.
As a conservationist any harvest must be defensible. Years back legal in some Montana Unlimited areas was “any ram.” Wyoming’s law currently is “any ram” and where and when appropriate we also allow ewe harvest as a management tool of our precious bighorn resource. Regardless, I respect our current ¾ curl minimum.
In my opinion Craig’s article offers a refreshing change from the “I took the biggest” or “I spent the most and therefore I am entitled the best” we often feed and are fed of late. It is honest, self-reflective, challenges our personal views, decisions, and ethos, and captures the uncertainty of “should I take the shot or not?” It also addresses well the fact that it is not the outfitter, or guide, and not your spouse or hunting partner, but rather the hunter alone who owns this decision.
The previous 2019-2020 season saw an atypical number of Unlimited rams taken beyond the quota, and rumblings and assertions of late check-ins being allowed as the cause. I made some inquires and learned that some courtesy citations were written but that the hunters had called in their harvest within 48 hours and their tardiness in arriving in person did not affect the quota status.
Like you, I cherish this Unlimited opportunity and will do all I can to protect it. After being blessed with an Unlimited ram in 2014 my seven years wait expired this year. Will I take another ram even if seeing a legal one? I’m not sure, but I will go back into the Unlimited areas to hunt sheep as this Montana “opportunity for all” regardless of one’s financial stature makes it so special.
Again, thank you for your sincere and thoughtful comments and most especially for your support of Wild Sheep Foundation and wild sheep conservation.
Respectfully and sincerely,
Gray N. Thornton, President & CEO
Wild Sheep Foundation
412 Pronghorn Trail
Bozeman, MT 59718
406-404-8750
Summit Life Member
Chadwick Ram Society Member
Legacy Society
mtnkid85
Well-known member
For what its worth I agree with him. Maybe its because I myself have killed a 4.5yo ram though.
mevertsen
Well-known member
520 Road Sow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2017
- Messages
- 6,818
Boy your on the inside if you get photos like that.
I'm only guessing but I'm going with 3. Looks like that twine is a little fudged too.
Idk, not what I'm looking for.
Hey look at it this way Donna is elite now. #slammer
mmw194287
Well-known member
There is not a god damn chance that you can look at that ram through a spotter and deem it legal. Looks like they moved the hair from the base of the horn and set the string as low as they could possibly get it. No ****in way anyone, even with the best glass in the world, can call that ram "legal" before taking a shot.
rjthehunter
Well-known member
There's a straight line from point to point. With the thick piece of twine, held on the outside of the horn and base, the opposite edge of the twine passes through the eye. No way you could look at that sheep on the mountain and say it's definitely legal. Doesn't even look legal up close...
Attachments
This was posted on the Boddington Facebook page with 20k+ followers.
520 Road Sow
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2017
- Messages
- 6,818
Maybe they used @mtnkid85 wider string idea?
