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elk recovery.

Michaelr said "Alot of guys just aren't as dedicated, they don't put as much into it nor do they care as much as guys like you"

Thats fine, but just because some fat-ass wont put in the effort required to learn a few things about the sport, dont expect me to just "understand". I also have no problem encouraging and advocating more stringent laws on things such as game retrieval. I dont want ATV's or passanger vehicles off established trails/roads for any reason. Like I've said before, if you have enough ambition to hike in kill an elk or deer, you ought to have enough to haul it out of the woods without an atv, etc.

In my experience the more dedicated hunters are also the ones that fight the hardest to preserve/conserve the animals they want to hunt. The sport doesnt need more hunters like the typical atv slug, half-assed,kinda-sorta wanta hunt people, your defending. What the sport needs is hunters becoming more dedicated and understanding just what a privelege it is to have the opportunity to hunt. Through dedication to the sport comes more knowledge of the animals, what they need to survive, and what HAS to be done to ensure the future of wildlife...and ultimately hunting. Without the wildlife there is no hunting. Just having a few more bodies carrying rifles through the woods each fall wont do shit to change the final outcome, and thats a fact.

Next time you see a bunch of the "not so dedicated" hunters ask them what they've done for wildlife lately, ask them how many letters they write a year, or how much they donate to conservation...

Most assume "they" will fix all the problems, well, I tell you what "they" arent doing a damn thing, whoever "they" are.
 
Spend some time this season watching what's going on with the fat assed ATV riders. They're not actually hunting anymore, they're just out joy riding. They've found another way to road hunt, and they don't care how much they ruin other peoples hunting. Most of them are disgusting and the image they project is bad for hunting.
 
As far as I know, ATV's are not legal on any of the National Forest roads in Washington. There may be a few trails open for motorized vehicles, but if there are it's very few. To be legal on forest service roads, a vehicle has to be street legal. So really there aren't many places to legally ride ATV's here. Most private timber companies do not allow ATV's either. State land is about the only legal place there is to ride ATV's that I know of. I guess that is why I just don't see where there is a big problem with hunters using ATV's in an unethical way. I am sure it does go on somewhere in this state, I just personally haven't seen it. And I do feel that ATV's are great for transportation on rough roads where legal. I don't see how it's any different than any other motor vehicle. Just think, with all those fat asses riding around "hunting" the roads from their ATV's, the guys willing to hike will have the woods all to themselves...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Well, it's legal, so I'm going to do it."
I like that statement so much that I'm going to use it for my signature. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe Suicide is Legal in some places... just FYI..
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That is great, when people are void of a Moral Compass, and are forced to rely on a Law to tell them right from wrong.

CJ and others here rail against one more law being passed for any reason, that is not already on the books, and then we see why we are forced to pass more laws, when we have people saying "Well, it's legal, so I'm going to do it."

Just because it is Legal to shoot a Hen mallard, doesn't mean you should while duck hunting. Just because you are allowed a Pintail, doesn't mean you should shoot it. There are many times in life when hopefully our own Moral compass exceeds the minimums set by the Legislators.
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Washington Hunter,
I agree, using an ATV on a road, and saving the fancy 4x4 rig is acceptable. One of the areas I see is the line between using an ATV to move down a road and the the line of hunting is very blurry.

Many of the Fat-asses are riding, with a loaded rifle, and looking for something to shoot, jacking rounds from the middle of the Forest Service road, cuz nobody is looking.

There are areas of Idaho like Owyhee County that are HUGE, and my guess is the BLM might have an officer out there once in a while. The Sheriff's dept would not care about an ATV violation on BLM lands, and the F&G might have an officer out there. (And keep in mind, this County is bigger than all of Texas!
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) The chance of getting caught out there is slim to none.
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Riding on ATVs out there the entire day, is an accepted way of hunting, and as such, we now only have 2pt regulations for some damn good country.
 
Gunner you have a county in idaho bigger than the state of Texas? Wow. the reason that i "rail" against new laws is what good are they if you can`t enforce the ones already on the books? I have seen to much of this [new law] bullshit already , just look at all of the gun laws, hundreds, do they stop criminals from getting guns? Please explain to me how a new law will work, if you can`t enforce a similar existing one? Remember it was you guys who said there wern`t enough LEO`s already.
 
Buzz has a good point. How many times have we had posters bitchin' about more new laws here, maybe a million? But we also have posters here who are going to push the legal limits as far as they can. They're not going to use any common sense and stay on existing roads and trails, they're going to ride anywhere they feel like going and say, "As long as it's not illegal, I'm gonna do it." Then when the public is fed up enough with all the ATV abuse of the environment and other hunters enjoyment of the sport there will be demand for stricter laws. That's what we're seeing now.

So who's to blame for the stricter laws and increased need for law enforcement resources? Answer: The crowd that says, "As long as there's no law against it I'm gonna do it." That's why we get more laws---selfish, inconsiderate people with no social conscience trying to get away with as much as they can. And then they bitch about new laws. That applies to a lot more than the ATV crowd, but they're a prime example.

Outlaw ATVs during hunting season and we'll all be better off.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 10-29-2003 22:28: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I bet when some of you high browed ethical cocksuckers get old and crippled up, that your attitudes will change a little. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doug.. look at Elkgunner... HE still is against them and he fits your Description...
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just because it is Legal to shoot a Hen mallard, doesn't mean you should while duck hunting. Just because you are allowed a Pintail, doesn't mean you should shoot it. There are many times in life when hopefully our own Moral compass exceeds the minimums set by the Legislators. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shit Gunner.. next you're going to tell me I can't shoot a Gobbler of the Roost or Ground Blast a Pheasant... Or use a Barb when fishing.... You're just not right man
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Here's an interesting opinion on the subject of legality versus ethics; reference to Sand County Almanac are included for 1_p's sake:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>An ethical sportsman knows and obeys the law. On that point, we agree. An ethical sportsman studies regulations carefully, obtains the proper licenses and hunts and fishes only during designated seasons. Bag and possession limits are obeyed, and only legal equipment and methods of harvest are used.

Yet a person can do all these things and still not have one smidgen of ethics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Click here

I have to agree that legality and morality are not always the same. But, neither are morality and necessity.
 
Moosie are you calling Elkgunner a "!#)(*##+'?
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. Ithaca i don`t see where anyone says it`s ok to just drive around on atv`s when not on an existing trail or road, even if it`s legal[ other than to retrieve game] where are you seeing this? And where is it legal to just drive around anywhere you want? I think you are "overstating" what has been said here.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And where is it legal to just drive around anywhere you want? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Most of all the 3.2 million acres administered by the Salt Lake BLM office. The few exceptions are the Wilderness Study Areas and a few other inventoried/closed routes.

IT brought up one of the biggest parts of the issue, is inventoried roads. Most of the 'roads' we see/use are not officially known to exist. How many times have you tried to follow a map only to find many more roads there? I know in parts of UT it is very common.


Doug- When I'm crippled up and old I'll do something else. My grandpa is still chasing squirrels and beagle dogs (he doesn't shoot them but the rabbits in front of them) around the stip pits of So. IN and he's 72! I can't wait to join him next month.
 
My grandpa is still chasing squirrels and beagle dogs
Does Granpa ever catch any squirrels or beagle dogs?
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Excluding anyone from hunting because they have physical limitations is just plain wrong. And just for Moosie...... yes I do ground shoot pheasents, and I shoot turkeys off the roost with a rifle, and I use barbed hooks with live bait when I go fishing. Why?........Well it's legal, so I'm going to do it.
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Doug
 
Cj- We can't change the travel plan near SLC because of the ramifications with fly-over status and the military. Til something changes we'll have to stick with the 1986 travel plan.
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Well Ithaca i probably wasn`t on this site a year ago ,so i don`t remember it, but regardless maybee BLM should rethink it`s stance if atv`s are alowed to run all over non-existing roads and trails. Now there are some areas where it`s ok IMO, such as the "dunes" down by Yuma Az. I also saw a place in Utah [pink correl sand dunes] where they allow atv`s, but i have seen other areas that were ruined by offraoding [massive erosion etc.] it doesn`t seem like very good "land management" to allow them to run all over hell in a sensative environment.
 
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