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Did Colorado Break the Elk Bank This Year?
- Thread starter BrokenArrow
- Start date
marksjeep
Well-known member
Went out ML this year for the first time in quite a few years. I usually just hunt rifle seasons, I don't bowhunt. It seemed far more crowded than any rifle season I've hunted in recent past. I hunted the same units/areas that I do during rifle seasons, just did it earlier due to scheduling issues during the rifle seasons.
The elk numbers are down, no doubt. We've been seeing it for the past few years.
I'd be all for limiting all elk tags. I'd also like to see the BGSS split out, so that deer and elk are managed separately (separate season dates if warranted).
The elk numbers are down, no doubt. We've been seeing it for the past few years.
I'd be all for limiting all elk tags. I'd also like to see the BGSS split out, so that deer and elk are managed separately (separate season dates if warranted).
Elmacho
Active member
Same issue with all types of hunts----why it now costs north of $20K to go hunt Alaska/Yukon moose and $50k+ for sheep...people willing to spend the coin
D
Deleted member 40728
Guest
Haha. I was only stating from my personal experiences in SW CO but kudos to you for bringing the proof and disproving my theory. I will be certain to do more research before opening my yap from now on lol.
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BrokenArrow
Well-known member
First, I just want to say thanks to everyone who has left a post in this thread. I wanted to hear some opinions while they are fresh in everyone's mind.
The fact that this thread went to five pages in one day speaks a lot to the issue and it's importance. Also meaning that folks are having "Normal" and "Marginal" experiences based on previous years hunting in this state. I don't really hear anyone saying that had an "amazing" time hunting out here though.
I am going to say that I did not hold a tag within 2 hours of my house near Durango. And in fact focused on out of state hunts this year because the quality of hunts i have found to be much better. The question of whether i am will to pay for that quality speaks for itself. I also enjoy this country for all it's opportunity. I see my tag cost as supporting hunting as a tradition, but that
'conservation return" varies state to state based on their management plans.
As for local hunting and the beta I received. I believe the hearsay from the owners and CPW officer very well. If you can imagine a desperate out of state hunter (who may not know how to hunt CO elk) asking for any advice to fill their tag. Basically desperate and wanting to vent because their experience sucked.
I did guide paying clients and took out new hunters this year locally and witnessed the conditions, even though i did not hunt locally. What i can tell you is that lighter pack weights, new mapping technology, and ambitious hunting tactics have combined to get people into honey holes that I have never, ever seen anyone else in. I might have shed a tear or two for one spot i always had alone. It marked a change for me and solitude expectations.
Saying that, I did witness more vehicles and camps than I have ever seen around here. I will say that most were located around the 416 fire area that happened last summer. Glassing felt like i was just a guy keeping tabs on all the orange dots and waiting for the drive to send elk our way.
I did reach out to many of my local friends and it seems like harvest stats were lower and elk sightings in normal spots were lower. Most agreed that harder work was needed to tag out.
Today I reached out to 7 of the outfitters I have worked for in the past and asked them about success. The feedback was very interesting.
1. All agreed that elk numbers are down around here, no matter how you want to slice it. Period.
2. Weather sucked this year. Just wasn't as cooperative, but it wasn't out of the range of what I call "normal" in CO.
3. Most agreed to have seen public non-client hunters in zones they have never had issues with before.
4. Suprisingly all agreed that OTC Needs to go away. Maybe this means less paying hunters for them. But, if quality or elk numbers go down, who in the hell would want to come here anyway in the future. Maybe Non-res are forced to hunt here beacause they are a prisoner of their 14 non-res points. Aging might cull that one day though.
5. Side Note -> all agreed LESS paying hunters than years before.
I also consider the good economy factor with more people and expendable income that gets them here.
I'm gonna keep tabs on his thread and need to think a little bit more about the November 14-15 commission meetings before I really want to make a statement about what should be done. But to back up my stance from before, DAU caps would be the least that needs to be done. DAU's are comprised of multiple units in one group.
I would love to say that CPW could limit each unit individually, but without hunting harvest and accurate calf recruitment data, I believe that would be an exercise in futility.
Base line for me -> We need more data and re-look at TABOR.
Sorry for the long rant, but this very important for CO at this time of new management proposals.
Thanks again to all of you!
The fact that this thread went to five pages in one day speaks a lot to the issue and it's importance. Also meaning that folks are having "Normal" and "Marginal" experiences based on previous years hunting in this state. I don't really hear anyone saying that had an "amazing" time hunting out here though.
I am going to say that I did not hold a tag within 2 hours of my house near Durango. And in fact focused on out of state hunts this year because the quality of hunts i have found to be much better. The question of whether i am will to pay for that quality speaks for itself. I also enjoy this country for all it's opportunity. I see my tag cost as supporting hunting as a tradition, but that
'conservation return" varies state to state based on their management plans.
As for local hunting and the beta I received. I believe the hearsay from the owners and CPW officer very well. If you can imagine a desperate out of state hunter (who may not know how to hunt CO elk) asking for any advice to fill their tag. Basically desperate and wanting to vent because their experience sucked.
I did guide paying clients and took out new hunters this year locally and witnessed the conditions, even though i did not hunt locally. What i can tell you is that lighter pack weights, new mapping technology, and ambitious hunting tactics have combined to get people into honey holes that I have never, ever seen anyone else in. I might have shed a tear or two for one spot i always had alone. It marked a change for me and solitude expectations.
Saying that, I did witness more vehicles and camps than I have ever seen around here. I will say that most were located around the 416 fire area that happened last summer. Glassing felt like i was just a guy keeping tabs on all the orange dots and waiting for the drive to send elk our way.
I did reach out to many of my local friends and it seems like harvest stats were lower and elk sightings in normal spots were lower. Most agreed that harder work was needed to tag out.
Today I reached out to 7 of the outfitters I have worked for in the past and asked them about success. The feedback was very interesting.
1. All agreed that elk numbers are down around here, no matter how you want to slice it. Period.
2. Weather sucked this year. Just wasn't as cooperative, but it wasn't out of the range of what I call "normal" in CO.
3. Most agreed to have seen public non-client hunters in zones they have never had issues with before.
4. Suprisingly all agreed that OTC Needs to go away. Maybe this means less paying hunters for them. But, if quality or elk numbers go down, who in the hell would want to come here anyway in the future. Maybe Non-res are forced to hunt here beacause they are a prisoner of their 14 non-res points. Aging might cull that one day though.
5. Side Note -> all agreed LESS paying hunters than years before.
I also consider the good economy factor with more people and expendable income that gets them here.
I'm gonna keep tabs on his thread and need to think a little bit more about the November 14-15 commission meetings before I really want to make a statement about what should be done. But to back up my stance from before, DAU caps would be the least that needs to be done. DAU's are comprised of multiple units in one group.
I would love to say that CPW could limit each unit individually, but without hunting harvest and accurate calf recruitment data, I believe that would be an exercise in futility.
Base line for me -> We need more data and re-look at TABOR.
Sorry for the long rant, but this very important for CO at this time of new management proposals.
Thanks again to all of you!
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elkduds
Well-known member
Here is the exact public input data CPW used in deciding 2020-24 big game season structure (BGSS).
Pictures and graphs! Pages 8-26 if you can't manage them all.
Pictures and graphs! Pages 8-26 if you can't manage them all.
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
Personally, from what I've seen, I believe the low elk numbers in some areas of Colorado are 100% due to lead poisoning.
Many a year here( most of the 2000s) in the Centennial state, you could get a redonkulous amount of tags. I believe the "experts" over estimated the number of breeding females you could blast and still have solid, stable populations.
Every time you blast a cow you blast 2 elk. Exponential growth also works the other way? Around 2005-2010 I was buying cow tags just to save an elk, cause I knew I wasn't gonna shoot one.
Many a year here( most of the 2000s) in the Centennial state, you could get a redonkulous amount of tags. I believe the "experts" over estimated the number of breeding females you could blast and still have solid, stable populations.
Every time you blast a cow you blast 2 elk. Exponential growth also works the other way? Around 2005-2010 I was buying cow tags just to save an elk, cause I knew I wasn't gonna shoot one.
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BrentD
Well-known member
Make archery bows and arrows only - problem solved.
zach_destroys
Active member
This was my first year elk hunting in SW colorado and I was able to find elk from day 1 and ended up filling my bull tag within the week. I'm by no means an experienced elk hunter but I did my research and climbed 1400 feet in elevation through dead fall to find elk everyday. There was some pressure down below where I was hunting, maybe 12 camps through the week. A lot of those guys thought it was going to be just like on tv. Much different story once they were there. I could point on the mountain to where elk were and several just said, "I'm not climbing all the way up there".
I think a lot of the masses headed to Colorado are due to social media, forums, hunting shows, ect. But once guys get a taste of it I'm sure a lot of them wont be back. Has anyone looked at harvest stats from 10 years ago compared to today? I would have to guess not much has changed, same guys kill elk every year. But even as a non-res I would be ok with making more of Colorado limited entry. It would keep the pressure down and help western hunting stay western.
I think a lot of the masses headed to Colorado are due to social media, forums, hunting shows, ect. But once guys get a taste of it I'm sure a lot of them wont be back. Has anyone looked at harvest stats from 10 years ago compared to today? I would have to guess not much has changed, same guys kill elk every year. But even as a non-res I would be ok with making more of Colorado limited entry. It would keep the pressure down and help western hunting stay western.
zach_destroys
Active member
100% on cutting down the ohv stuff. It takes away from the experience.
Not really, if you pick a random Midwestern state to compare, Iowa. The gap is 40 points for both record Typical and Non Typical and that is just a single state.
BrentD
Well-known member
Allen's Rule is what you want for appendages. But I suspect that won't apply to antlers.
DouglasR
Well-known member
Well, if you insist...
On August 31st, approximately 10hrs in to my first day of elk hunting I had multiple bulls bugling in the valley below me on a 85 degree day in a unit that gohunt basically describes as a pos. Ended up accidentally calling in a 5pt and killing him while I was cooking dinner. The only other hunter I saw while afield was packing out a 6pt.
I don’t want to hear any of that BS about luck either.
As far I can tell you can’t throw a dead cat in any direction in Colorado without hitting a elk.
When it comes to limiting non resident opportunities don’t you guys get worried about accelerating the western migration of millennials?
Mallardsx2
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2015
- Messages
- 3,611
Colorado simply needs to go to a unit specific OTC elk archery license. This would solve a lot of the unit jumping issues.
I am 100% on board with this idea.
Also Colorado needs to do away with the OTC rifle season for elk.
Also it needs to add more Archery units. Get rid of the point holders.
Also if you get a tag you loose your points. Period. If you get an OTC tag you loose your points.
This would solve a lot of the hunter crowding issues and bring the populations back up to our expectations. NOT the DOW'S "Estimate" of the herds.
Unfortunately none of these fall in line with its "Financial model"...Waaaaaaaaaay too many hands in the cookie jar in Colorado.
What a great state but what a great shame in the direction it is going.
I am 100% on board with this idea.
Also Colorado needs to do away with the OTC rifle season for elk.
Also it needs to add more Archery units. Get rid of the point holders.
Also if you get a tag you loose your points. Period. If you get an OTC tag you loose your points.
This would solve a lot of the hunter crowding issues and bring the populations back up to our expectations. NOT the DOW'S "Estimate" of the herds.
Unfortunately none of these fall in line with its "Financial model"...Waaaaaaaaaay too many hands in the cookie jar in Colorado.
What a great state but what a great shame in the direction it is going.
Certainly a different tone here than when you first posted about this hunt.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
I would speculate some of this is due to higher population density and row-crop seasonal needs. For example, in parts of MN they end up closing some of the region’s most popular trail systems during deer season to prevent accidents, but would be tough to convince the 90% non-hunting population to do things like this for a full month. Open hunting in the west, and constricted hunting in the east are just different creatures.
elkantlers
Well-known member
I hunted Muzzleloader elk in SW Colorado for the first time this year and was pretty disappointed in the amount of elk that I saw. I had always heard how many elk Colorado had but when I put boots on the ground I was not seeing anywhere near what I expected. I saw a total of 9 cows and 2 bulls in 8 days of scouting and hunting, Certainly not what I expected. The people in my camp and others I talked with were not seeing many elk either.
www.hunttalk.com
Colorado Raghorn
I drew a muzzleloader elk permit in Colorado for a unit that has lots of permits. The plan was to shoot any legal bull if I was lucky enough to even find one. I had made two scouting trips and had seen a total of 6 cows. My expectations were pretty low. I hunted hard and tried to get away from...
www.hunttalk.com
Maybe bunching everyone up into a week helps cause the accidents? I remember hearing a stat, I think on a Meateater podcast, where 1 million shots are fired the opening week of Wisconsin deer. Ludicrous. Tradition for traditions sake.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
One challenge of using tag price increase to decrease hunting pressure is that the top 15% income of the 14 million hunters in the US, still leaves you with 2 million hunters who are fairly price insensiitive vs the number of available tags. Meaning you risk pricing out a large majority of hunters before you would dry up the pool of hunters vs tags - I am sure this already happens to some extent (NR hunting is not cheap), but accelerating this type of economic stratification is not good for the sport in my opinion.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
Tree stand hunting allows greater “safe density” for the hunters. Not saying there aren’t other factors - but it’s not just “tradition”. I doubt it will change much up here, but my guess is we would have fewer/shorter seasons in MN before we have longer ones given the general growth of anti-hunter sentiment, increased non-hunting public use of MN woods and aging out of traditional hunting population.
