Did Colorado Break the Elk Bank This Year?

[AvidIndoorsman]

I honestly don't believe if we got rid of TABOR it would help fund CPW at all. It would be like everything else it would go into some shady general fund where the money would just disappear and without TABOR they would just raise taxes more. At least with TABOR we get a say in how we are taxed if they could put a tax on the ballot that was designated solely for conservation they might have some success, but they just ask for more money for roads and schools.

You clearly have no idea how anything works. Sometime pull up the state statutes.
Sorry for being glib, but there is just so much wrong with that statement it would take forever to unpack.

Also Colorado has some of lowest spending in the country on roads and schools because of idiots like you.

 

[Zach]

You clearly have no idea how anything works. Sometime pull up the state statutes.
Sorry for being glib, but there is just so much wrong with that statement it would take forever to unpack.

Also Colorado has some of lowest spending in the country on roads and schools because of idiots like you.

So you voted yes on CC?

 

[Zach]

I think we can all agree that the first goal should be herd health. A related and secondary goal would be funding the agency responsible for this goal. I'm not sure providing non-residents an affordable hunting opportunity is something any state worries about.

If people think there are too many non-resident hunters in CO I'm not sure why you would reduce the number simply by kicking them out rather than pricing them out?

People hold Wyoming as the gold standard with it's long seasons, if you assume that the way to achieve this in CO is to reduce the number of hunters in CO to the same proportion of hunters/elk as WY and then allocate tags R/NR the same way, you are looking at cutting 31,712 NR tags. This will cost the state of Colorado 20 million dollars. My argument is that if the whole point is to fund our agency, so that the agency may have the necessary resources to manage our wildlife, then it logically follows that instead of taking that budget shortfall you would promote voluntary hunter attrition by increasing the price of NR tags.

I prefer the status quo.

(My math on the tags v. budget loss)
View attachment 120958

I think in these conversations it's important for people to understand how the departments are funded and in general what drives the variations from state to state. Texas derives only 17% of it's DNR budget from license sales while Colorado gets 54% from these sales. CPAW and issues a number of white papers and a full report on alternative funding sources, essentially trying to mirror Texas, MT, WY, etc and came to the conclusion that TABOR prevents them from any of them.

Have you seen anything more current than this from CPW ~ https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2016/May/Item_20-Financial_Update.pdf

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

So you voted yes on CC?

I recognize that I am at the place I am in life because previous generations paid for roads, education, police, and other social program. Without the tax dollars of others I would not have received the great education I did at a public school in Colorado. Since I graduated high school the population of my home county has exploded and average class sizes have gone from the low 20s to 30s.

Personally I’m very fiscally conservative and I detest wasteful spending, TABOR actually leads to more waste by doing things like not allowing districts to carry a surplus year to year so they buy crap like TVs instead of banking the money to make larger purchase in future years.
I dont have kids but I’m more than willing to pay more to improve schools for my neighbors.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Have you seen anything more current than this from CPW ~ https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2016/May/Item_20-Financial_Update.pdf

As part of the 5 year season review there were updated financials, I bet if you google la junta meeting they will come up, I don’t believe anything with that level of detail has been released.
I’m certainly not defending every item or budgetary decision makes, simply that de-brucing the department is not going to magically move elk license sale dollars into the Colorado general fund, that statutes that mandate how funding is allocated for license are part of the wildlife section not TABOR.

 

[rwc101]

I wonder what push back CPW would get from the rest of the government if they went the "jack up the price and sell fewer tags" route. CPW might get the same amount of money, but thousands of hunting tourists and all their dollars would disappear for hotels, restaurants, sporting goods stores, breweries, taxidermists, gas stations, etc and the local/state governments that tax them.

 

[Pelican]

Have you seen anything more current than this from CPW ~ https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2016/May/Item_20-Financial_Update.pdf

A financial update is available along with other info provided for each commission meeting on the CPW website. It is often only financial info for the previous quarter.

 

[Zach]

I recognize that I am at the place I am in life because previous generations paid for roads, education, police, and other social program. Without the tax dollars of others I would not have received the great education I did at a public school in Colorado. Since I graduated high school the population of my home county has exploded and average class sizes have gone from the low 20s to 30s.

Personally I’m very fiscally conservative and I detest wasteful spending, TABOR actually leads to more waste by doing things like not allowing districts to carry a surplus year to year so they buy crap like TVs instead of banking the money to make larger purchase in future years.
I dont have kids but I’m more than willing to pay more to improve schools for my neighbors.
~
As part of the 5 year season review there were updated financials, I bet if you google la junta meeting they will come up, I don’t believe anything with that level of detail has been released.
I’m certainly not defending every item or budgetary decision makes, simply that de-brucing the department is not going to magically move elk license sale dollars into the Colorado general fund, that statutes that mandate how funding is allocated for license are part of the wildlife section not TABOR.

I'm by no means a financial genius, but if the explosion in class size is that dramatic, isn't the tax increase exponentially related to the growth? I don't have any kids in public school, all mine are homeschooled, but I still contribute via taxes. First the lotto was going to end school financial shortcomings, then weed, now they want to eliminate TABOR to fix the school funding. The pattern will only seems to get worse and still the schools are in trouble.
~
I've looked for the numbers but haven't found anything similar to my link. It really is telling where the money comes from and then where it goes. Elk revenue definitely doesn't equal elk expenditures. Hopefully CPW published some more current numbers soon.

 

[Zach]

A financial update is available along with other info provided for each commission meeting on the CPW website. It is often only financial info for the previous quarter.

Guess I should have dove a little deeper. CPW added fancy colors...

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2019/September/Item.8ppt-Financial_update_September-Justin%20Rutter-DNR.pdf#search=financial

 

[Pelican]

Here is a link to a financial update from the July meeting that has info through May 9th.

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2019/July/Item.8ppt-July_Financial_Update-Justin_Rutter-DNR.pdf

It appears the requirement to buy a combo or small game license to apply along with the price increase of those licenses resulted in a net gain of 10.8 million. The implementation of the moose, sheep and goat pp fee and increase in application fees from $3 to either $7 or $9 resulted in a increase of another 3.4 million.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I'm by no means a financial genius, but if the explosion in class size is that dramatic, isn't the tax increase exponentially related to the growth? I don't have any kids in public school, all mine are homeschooled, but I still contribute via taxes. First the lotto was going to end school financial shortcomings, then weed, now they want to eliminate TABOR to fix the school funding. The pattern will only seems to get worse and still the schools are in trouble.
~
I've looked for the numbers but haven't found anything similar to my link. It really is telling where the money comes from and then where it goes. Elk revenue definitely doesn't equal elk expenditures. Hopefully CPW published some more current numbers soon.

This provides a pretty good explanation of the issues: https://www.greateducation.org/statistics-faqs/funding-faqs/tabor-gallagher/

 

[noharleyyet]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

 

[OverlordBear]

A few things to changes from a former CO resident. They need to limit OHV usages and trails. It ruins hunts when you are hearing the whine of engines echoing through canyons all day. OTC should be valid for only one to five adjacent units they need to eliminate the half of the state tags. Spilt archery into two seasons early and late. These changes would solve quality of hunt perceptions. During archery season if you can’t hear the other hunters you “feel” like you have the mountain to yourself.

 

[7 mag]

We, filled our tags, In unit 26,, but we hunt private so really wouldn't know how thecpu lic land hunters, did

 

[7 mag]

Otc has got to go. All of it. This last year was ridiculous. We packed out three bags of trash in the west elks wilderness. All from horse camps. The strain on the resource is too much. Never saw a legal bull in rifle range. Two seasons we were out. 6 to 10 miles hiked a day. Bs.

Go Limited entry, raise the tag fees. Give the elk a chance to live past his first set of branched antlers. Focus on a healthy sustainable herd. Not your revenue, CPW.

Don't worry once they introduce the wolves and grizzlies bacK into Co your elk herds will dissappear won't need to raise fees or go limited entry

 

[7 mag]

Bushman 13 quote
(4k yearly for 600 acres
and owners in the West could make that with a couple of cow hunts and the hunters are gone after one day)quote
Out here in Montana, and wyoming 4k will get you an, anterless, doe or anterless, cow or calf elk , something with horns your gonna pay upwards, of 7k-10k and you won't find a 600 acre lease for 4 grand a year we own 815 acres I can Lease it tomorrow to an outfitter for 4x that

 

[bushman13]

I hear you, tbh there is no real comparison between elk and deer hunting. Not a lot of valid comparisons between East vs West hunting really. My off hand comments are usually just to get the brain cells firing in a different manor for the western hunters. If you have been handed a 1 week hunting season your entire life, you may not realize there are working models elsewhere, without all of the limitations. People have a bad habit of defending status quo.

I'm a cyber security engineer in real life and one my main goals is ripping apart complexity and replacing with simplicity. Everyone has a big brain short term.

Bushman 13 quote
(4k yearly for 600 acres
and owners in the West could make that with a couple of cow hunts and the hunters are gone after one day)quote
Out here in Montana, and wyoming 4k will get you an, anterless, doe or anterless, cow or calf elk , something with horns your gonna pay upwards, of 7k-10k and you won't find a 600 acre lease for 4 grand a year we own 815 acres I can Lease it tomorrow to an outfitter for 4x that

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I hear you, tbh there is no real comparison between elk and deer hunting. Not a lot of valid comparisons between East vs West hunting really. My off hand comments are usually just to get the brain cells firing in a different manor for the western hunters. If you have been handed a 1 week hunting season your entire life, you may not realize there are working models elsewhere, without all of the limitations. People have a bad habit of defending status quo.

I'm a cyber security engineer in real life and one my main goals is ripping apart complexity and replacing with simplicity. Everyone has a big brain short term.

WY and MT have essentially 12 week seasons.

If you get a sept bear tag, a 1st season elk, 2nd season deer, and a 4th season cow tag you can have a pretty damn long CO season...

but point taken, there are a ton of ways to do it

 

[bushman13]

That's true and that's also why I want to outline the beauty of simplicity. Your scenario below outlines a very sharp learning curve of the system and also a willingness to play the game. Steep learning curves and playing games do not benefit the average hunter IMO. My ignorant comments are mainly just to spark a different way of looking at it.

I see a lot of parallels in CPW's management of elk and corporate IT waste. The solution sounds great from a short term perspective. Reality is, no one looked at it long term. Why would they when the balance sheet is for this quarter?
People tend to drift towards complexity and layered solution's when the topic is hot, but they never map out the long term cost of this added complexity. I would guess the average Fortune 500 IT Dept has a 10 million dollar per year cost of unused equipment and apps. This is because they do not factor in care and feeding of said product. I see similarities on the CPW OTC/point game, no one projected the long term cost/benefit ratio for the hunters, but hey, look at that balance sheet.

WY and MT have essentially 12 week seasons.

If you get a sept bear tag, a 1st season elk, 2nd season deer, and a 4th season cow tag you can have a pretty damn long CO season...

but point taken, there are a ton of ways to do it

 

[TomCO]

OTC SW Colorado wilderness same location last 4 years. Hunted third week of bow. First year did not see another hunter off trail. Bulls bulging every day. Lots of opportunities and lots of rookie mistakes. No elk kill but had a blast. Each year less bugling, less bull sightings and more hunter pressure. This year was unreal. Saw 15 hunters including 5 in our dark timber honey hole 8 miles from trail head and 2 miles off trail. Very few bugles heard and no chases. We did bring home meat so not all bad. Not sure about next year. Really missed the interaction with the bulls that we had in past years.