Decent scope,BDC vs Turret plus matching cartridge

[Btenn]

New to the forum.
Trying to decide which way to go on a new scope for my 30-06.
First Elk Hunt,(flat tops first rifle) 38 years of Public land DIY Whitetail (gun and Bow) experience in the thick north woods of the midwest.(very successful) Ive never been the guy with the best , newest stuff and don't believe you must be to have success .
I do not want to be "the guy" that misses an opportunity because of "lesser" equipment which led me to my search for a
better scope for my rifle.
Ive done a lot of homework and figure at minimum i should be looking at a 4-12 or 4-16-ish power.
I will be getting a rangefinder that gives me angle compensated yardage.(don't need it for my bow)
The name does not matter to me.
What all my research has led me to believe is i really don't know much about scopes!
So, BDC ?
From what i understand, you MUST have a certain cartridge to match the scope!? Really??
What if the particular cartridge isn't looked at as good for long range (for me i would say 500YRDS)
What if i want to use the "new ballistic tipped" type cartridge at 50 bucks a box?
I can't use that scope now ??
Same with the turret? Order extra turret to match cartridge ? Really??
So that all being said, I do not want to spend 1K on a scope, I can't.
I would like to have an opportunity to spot an elk, range it, then either adjust my scope for the yardage or know which mil dot to use.
Isn't there an affordable scope that has an adjustable turret?
I mean , pick a good cartridge(whichever one i choose), sight in , zero the scope and dial it in type of scope?
I understand the cheap scopes will not handle the recoil . i also understand (from experience) that with my 3-9 right now, at 300 yrds I'm not really "aiming", I'm pointing in a general area. i would like bit more.
Thanks for all you're positive input in advance.

BT

 

[Schaaf]

Most BDC/BRH/Mcwhorter style reticles have some sort of app that lets you add your Ballistic information and it will tell you what each of those dots are supposed to be. There are custom turrets that match different loads and bullets but it doesn't sound like that would be of much use to you.

Get ahold of Schmalts and see what kind of deal he could give you on a VX-3i CDS. That will get you one free Turret to whichever round you decide to pair it with.

 

[1_pointer]

Lots of questions...

IMO, a 3X9 is more than enough to 500yds for an elk. I've shot pronghorn nearly that far with my scope on 6X. BDC and turrets can be specific to the load or not. What I mean by that is if a BDC reticle matches up with one load at 2-3-400 yards, it will work with a different load just the same but possible not at such round numbers. Same with turrets. If you just use a mildot or similar reticle or a turret with MOA/MIL markings you just tailor the comeups to the load you are using. Think in terms of MOA/MIL (ie angles of measurement) and not inches of drop. If you need to compensate 2 units, use the 2nd dot or twist to the 2 on the turret. Lots of ways to skin this cat to get you to 500yds, you just need to decide which one works best for you. If you decide on using a reticle, remember that in a second focal plane scope the dots are only correct at the magnification that you sighted them in for.

 

[LMD423]

We shoot leupold scopes with lr reticle. They are calibrated to a group of catridges. if a guy takes the time you can get them real close out to five hundred yards. Even six hundred on certain calibers. We use milk jugs filled with water at the 5 hundred mark and hit them pretty easily if we do our part on the trigger end. We don't get any long range shooting for the most part where we regularly hunt maybe 300 at most

 

[deer_shooter]

If you are not that familiar with scopes in general, you may want to steer clear of BDC reticles and turrets. These are features that are nice to have if you are familiar with their use but certainly not necessary. Personally, I don't use them.

I agree with 1_Pointer in that a 3-9 is just fine. No real need to change unless you want to upgrade. Just my 2 cents, but I would upgrade for better optical performance and not for a higher power range or bigger objective. If your current set up is functional and your are comfortable shooting it, I'd leave it alone. That said, if you really want to upgrade, a Leupold VX2 with CDS may be a good option for you and is a really good scope for a few hundred bucks.

Before spending money on a scope, you may want to make sure you have other essential gear such as really good boots, decent binos, gps, etc.

 

[Ridge Ghost]

How far is your effective range? For most hunting situations (about 400 yards and under) a 3-9 power is more than enough. Unless you are going to spend all summer practicing long range shots, a 12 or 16 power scope will be overkill.

No, BDC reticles don't require you to have a certain cartridge to match the scope. Most are set up for an approximation based on the "average" speed of either a standard or magnum cartridge. However, if you use a ballistics calculator it will show you the exact yardage of each hash mark for YOUR cartridge based on muzzle velocity, ballistic coefficient, etc. Vortex, Burris and Nikon all offer ballistic calculators for their BDC reticles. For the scope manufacturers who don't, like Leupold, download an app called Strelok. It is a similar calculator with tons of different reticles in it's system- including LR Duplex, B&C duplex, etc.

Of course, after you run the calculations you should always go to the range and confirm that that measurements actually line up with real-world performance.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

So, BDC ?

I have had one of these and it wasn't really accurate as far as the drop. It would be better to practice the correct holdovers rather than rely on circles that are just a guess.

From what i understand, you MUST have a certain cartridge to match the scope!? Really??

I believe a lot of them are made for .223 unless they specify otherwise.

What if the particular cartridge isn't looked at as good for long range (for me i would say 500YRDS)

Then you would be wise to look at a different set up.

What if i want to use the "new ballistic tipped" type cartridge at 50 bucks a box?

Then you would be better to go with a regular adjustable turret MOA with drop chart taped to the rifle. You can get one for a few different manufactures at kentonindustries.com for $100-$150

I can't use that scope now ??

This is one of the reasons to go with an MOA turret as opposed to a custom turret. Also, if you plan to hunt at sea level and hunt in the alpine it may be wise to just go with an MOA set up or practice hold over.

Same with the turret? Order extra turret to match cartridge ? Really??

Same as above.

So that all being said, I do not want to spend 1K on a scope, I can't.


I would like to have an opportunity to spot an elk, range it, then either adjust my scope for the yardage or know which mil dot to use.

Isn't there an affordable scope that has an adjustable turret?

Vortex Viper/Diamondback, Leupold VX2 with CDS or Kenton, Nikon Prostaff, Sig Sauer Whiskey 3,

I mean , pick a good cartridge(whichever one i choose), sight in , zero the scope and dial it in type of scope?

This is the general idea.

I understand the cheap scopes will not handle the recoil . i also understand (from experience) that with my 3-9 right now, at 300 yrds I'm not really "aiming", I'm pointing in a general area. i would like bit more.

I bought a 6x20x44 Vortez Viper at sportman's warehouse last week for $300 (http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/...tDetail/Rifle-Scopes/prod9999012654/cat100738), which I will probably use for coyote hunting - however if you like magnification for the price it will be hard to beat. For big game hunting I like Leupold, because of the weight. I have a VX2 that 3x9x40 that is around 11 ounces and they make a 3x9x33 that is around 9 ounces. Personally I feel that going above 14x is a little extreme for big game hunting, because in a lot of cases you will have to turn down the power to shoot.

Thanks for all you're positive input in advance.

Take these things with a grain of salt, because they are just like my opinion man.

 

[Dan O]

Most BDC/BRH/Mcwhorter style reticles have some sort of app that lets you add your Ballistic information and it will tell you what each of those dots are supposed to be. There are custom turrets that match different loads and bullets but it doesn't sound like that would be of much use to you.

Get ahold of Schmalts and see what kind of deal he could give you on a VX-3i CDS. That will get you one free Turret to whichever round you decide to pair it with.

This!!!

Check out the 3.5x10 or the 4.5x14 with CDS. You get a turret set for MOA and can use it for any load. When you find the perfect load THEN get your free one. Keep in mind if you get into thick timber, is the lowest power to much? I can attest to the 4.5x14 to be a great scope and the CDS does work very well.
There problem solved!!!!

 

[Btenn]

WOW , Thanks all for the input. It is appreciated.
Really Looking forward to the hunt.
I look forward to learning all i can from these boards (past and present).
Ill take all of your advise , Do bit more homework, and off we go!
Thanks Again Gentlemen!!

BT

 

[bailey68]

Go with the best range finder you can afford that will range well out beyond your desired distance. to maximize accuracy on a budget I would go with a quality straight 6X scope. They are not available in all brands. Above that I think a variable scope should have parallax adjustment and a zero stop. From there practice.

You can fine tune your sight in range out to 250yds. figure out your comfortable max shooting distance without holdover and go from there. Plug and play if you will.

Outside of that have to shoot groups around an inch or so at a 100 or anything beyond 350 yards is by chance.

The range finder will help a lot.

 

[abqbw]

I used a basic 3x9 scope for 40 years. Killed lots of big game out to about 500 yds with very few mishaps. As I hit my mid 50s a few years ago I upgraded to a 3.5x18 power scope. I have found that I really like having the extra zoom up to about 12 power. I don't think I have ever shot an animal at a zoom over 12x and I have shot several animals at between 450 and 560 yds. Based on my experience I would be shopping for a scope in the 12 power range. My scope is the Swarovski Z5 3.5 x18 44mm with ballistic turret. I love it but it is out of your price range. I would guess that vortex or Leopold make a similar scope more in your price range. On my Swarovski the ballistic turret is adjustable to the ballistics of the ammo you are using. Or Outdoorsmans in Arizona can make you a custom turret.

 

[Millsworks]

I like the Vortex crossfire ll in the 6 to 18 power. It sure is holding it's zero and makes those shots over 300 yrds. alot easier to hit.

 

[Millsworks]

I should mention it is more affordable than most other scopes out there and I have put it on several rifles from a 7mm to an 06.
It will require practice at all ranges to make a drop chart that works. But, this is really true for all types of ballistic and turrit type systems.

 

[mtmuley]

You don't need a scope with a top end of 12, 14 or 18 power. A good scope with a top end of 9 or 10 power is sufficient. One of the Leupold with CDS is a great choice. Pick a bullet for your .06, sight in at 3 inches high at 100. You can "hold hair" out to 300 and let the turret take over after that if need be. Done it. mtmuley

 

[okie_hotrod]

One of my favorite Leupold scopes is the Mark AR 4-12x40 AO with the mildot reticle. It comes in at under $500 ad I've personally used it to hit small targets at 500 yards using just the tracking. Just make yourself a dope chart and dial your shot based on your range and altitude. As far as rangefinders go, I picked my Sig Kilo 850 up for $150 and if it's anywhere as near the quality of their other models, which I'm inclined to agree with based on my experience, then it should be more than enough to range elk out to 600+.

 

[rammac]

BDC systems are simply marks on the reticle that represent a certain amount of bullet drop, if you use a cartridge that's different than the one that was used to calculate the placement of the marks then the BDC will not be on target.

If you want to use a BDC scope then you need to select your cartridge first and the test the amount of drop at each BDC mark. Some companies provide calculators that will estimate the drop values but like all calculated drops, you need to verify the true drop in the field.

Most hunters will take an animal that's within 300 yards and quite often more realistically under 200 yards so high powered scopes aren't really necessary. That being said, I like the Leupold VX 6 2-12 model scopes, the low power is perfect for most of what I do but I can use the higher power for more accuracy when I need to. As others have said, most 30-06 cartridges can be sighted in for 200 yards and will be within a 6 inch circle out to 250 to 300 yards (depending on your cartridge) so you don't really need to adjust the scope for most situations. You will have to adjust your point of aim for wind or uphill/downhill shooting but that's simply a matter of aiming slightly off one way or another.

 

[hank4elk]

I used a 3x9x40 Leupold basic reticle for many years. Zeroed @ 200 I was fine for most of my hunting.
Upgraded to Zeiss 3.5x14x44 w/rapidZ 600 Conquest and their balistic data program is spot on. Very nice xmas tree reticle that does not block your vision & you can read. Dead on out to 500 @ the range so far & took my farthest game kill 2 yrs ago,405.
Have a Nikon BDC ring model on my MZ but do not like the thick rings & lines. Fortunately I only shoot out to 200 so it usually isn't too much of a problem in close
I plan on upgrading to a Leupold on the mz as I like that mz scope reticle. Xmas tree style like the Zeiss & the scopes I learned on a long time ago.

 

[3855WIN]

If you are going to attempt to kill at 500 yards, you need to practice at 500 yards. A more realistic limit would be 400 yards. Hold at the top of the back at 400 yards and you have a dead elk. Shoot your current set up at 400 and 500 yards and see what you can do. You may already have a great rig for your hunt.
Unless you put a good bit of range time in with a new hashed, dotted, or circled scope, I would expect that the elk would get away from you while you are trying to get this amazing rig set up. I would keep it simple. Purchase a range finder and be able to shoot to 400 yards.

 

[hank4elk]

+1 on a decent range finder.