CWD- again and forever.

[Treeshark]

I get that is good news, but we have to acknowledge how it was accomplished. The disease has been around for hundreds of years and there is no “magic bullet”. I have hope because science has come so far over the last 30 years, but we need to be realistic.

Yes, I agree with all of that. I didn’t make the comparison between the two in the first place- I pointed out why it probably wasn’t a good comparison to hold up in this instance.

 

[SAJ-99]

There’s a fundamental difference between scrapie in sheep and CWD in deer.

Codon 171 with two R alleles, or a 171RR sheep is actually resistant. Resistant as in to my knowledge there has never been a documented case of classical (infectious/contagious) scrapie in a 171RR sheep. That was found relatively quickly.

“They” (State/Fed/Industry) have been looking for over a decade in deer, and no such gene has been found. We’re talking hundreds of thousands of individual animals being analyzed. This is why I say business interests and profit has little to do with the success of the scrapie breeding program. Business interests and profit might have been the base motivation to start looking at genetics as a solution, but without the right genotype existing, there would’ve been zero success.

I’m just trying to find a way to remain optimistic. The fact that we can map a genome it a huge benefit. We just don’t understand exactly why some prions can or can’t jump from one species to the next. We need a lot of smart people working on this problem.

 

[SAJ-99]

Yes, I agree with all of that. I didn’t make the comparison between the two in the first place- I pointed out why it probably wasn’t a good comparison to hold up in this instance.

my comparison is valid in a broad sense, but agree not at a narrow level. Prion diseases have been around for hundreds of years (even when we didn’t know what a prion was) and only recently have we made progress.

 

[Treeshark]

“They” (State/Fed/Industry) have been looking for over a decade in deer, and no such gene has been found. We’re talking hundreds of thousands of individual animals being analyzed. This is why I say business interests and profit has little to do with the success of the scrapie breeding program.

Two things:

1. Again, agreed- I was responding to a post comparing CWD and scrapie, not making it. I think you’re right in pointing out they are not a great comparison.

2. I also want to be careful that my point about private involvement does not get misconstrued to mean that government/university involvement is not valuable or necessary. My hope is that meaningful solutions are found through collaboration between the two- I personally feel that when private companies have skin in the game, the ball tends to move downfield towards solutions more efficiently and more rapidly (I see this on my professional space).

Here are two examples of things that give me a bit of hope that this is the best pathway forward:

Enzyme Disinfectant

-Is it possible that this technology could lead to the ability to apply this material to large areas, effectively “cleaning up” areas affected with CWD?

Venison Testing

-Is it possible that this technology could lead to a point-of-kill testing method, enabling hunters to know they have an animal with CWD on the ground? This would be monumental in both transport concerns as well as human consumption concerns.

Note: Both of these examples (and there are many more like it) came from a public research/industry collaboration. As the decades in dealing with CWD drag on with frustratingly little advancement, I become more hopeful that this type of approach is what is going to lead toward something actually getting “done” (just for you @Nick87.

 

[SAJ-99]

It annoys me to know end when the bating is the whipping boy for CWD. It’s spreading in states with baiting its spreading states without baiting it doesn’t make any goddamn difference.

He doesn’t look like these mass cull operations have made any difference either. We are going to kill all the deer to save them???

Are we going to give them all CWD as fast as possible and see what happens? Baiting isn’t the “whipping boy” for CWD, game farms are. Baiting is just an easy target because it’s seen as lazy.

 

[Weimer]

Are we going to give them all CWD as fast as possible and see what happens? Baiting isn’t the “whipping boy” for CWD, game farms are. Baiting is just an easy target because it’s seen as lazy.

Would banning baiting slow cwd down? Doubtful. Did it in Wyoming or Colorado?
Deer will still hit the same scrapes and rubs. CWD infected bucks will still breed does. CWD infected does will still give birth and nurse fawns.
But yeah let’s worry about saliva transfer.

Without mandatory testing in all states the data is junk or incomplete at best. We have no idea what the real numbers are. Until we do we are trying to make decisions off junk data and junk models.

 

[Weimer]

As far as the point of origin of cwd. It’s either been here forever and we only recently discovered it. Or someone at the lab screwed up. But that’s never happened before right??
Maybe a deer at a infected bat or something

 

[brocksw]

Two things:

1. Again, agreed- I was responding to a post comparing CWD and scrapie, not making it. I think you’re right in pointing out they are not a great comparison.

2. I also want to be careful that my point about private involvement does not get misconstrued to mean that government/university involvement is not valuable or necessary. My hope is that meaningful solutions are found through collaboration between the two- I personally feel that when private companies have skin in the game, the ball tends to move downfield towards solutions more efficiently and more rapidly (I see this on my professional space).

Here are two examples of things that give me a bit of hope that this is the best pathway forward:

Enzyme Disinfectant

-Is it possible that this technology could lead to the ability to apply this material to large areas, effectively “cleaning up” areas affected with CWD?

Venison Testing

-Is it possible that this technology could lead to a point-of-kill testing method, enabling hunters to know they have an animal with CWD on the ground? This would be monumental in both transport concerns as well as human consumption concerns.

Note: Both of these examples (and there are many more like it) came from a public research/industry collaboration. As the decades in dealing with CWD drag on with frustratingly little advancement, I become more hopeful that this type of approach is what is going to lead toward something actually getting “done” (just for you @Nick87.

I think your hard on for private enterprise has distorted your ability to assess the work and the players on this issue. Priogen is a UMN start up, founded by UMN staff, almost entirely made up of UMN staff and is housed in a UMN building.

As for your questions, I’m sure you’ll come up with some answers on your own.

 

[brocksw]

Would banning baiting slow cwd down? Doubtful. Did it in Wyoming or Colorado?

This is a perfect example, thank you for mentioning. Yes, it (and other best management practices) did slow CWD down in Wyoming and Colorado, that is quite clear to even the most casual observer. Though, I’m sure if youre upset about baiting restrictions of some kind, motivated reasoning will deter you from actually assessing the facts around this topic.

But back to the example you mention. Saskatchewan, where baiting is a widely held practice, and where essentially zero best management practices were followed, climbed to the highest prevalence rate in the world faster than any other place on earth. In fact, in 20 years, they surpassed disease prevalence in Colorado, where it had been for over 40 years. Wyoming has essentially just recently reached those same levels, and they too are around the 40 yr mark.

Given the research around environmental transmission, infectivity and minimum infectious doses, I think it’s unlikely that a lot of animals are becoming positive from a single contact with another positive animal, or from licking a branch. But instead, it is repeated and prolonged exposure that is playing a significant role in disease transmission.

Furthermore, they can detect infectious prions that are being deposited by positive animals onto feeders and into feed. So, in these instances, you will have animals repeatedly(Perhaps daily) licking and ingesting infectious material. This is from another study not yet published, but the results are quite conclusive.

 

[SAJ-99]

Arguing counter factuals and conspiracies with a hunter that just wants to justify hunting over a pile of corn is never productive or useful.

 

[brocksw]

Arguing counter factuals and conspiracies with a hunter that just wants to justify hunting over a pile of corn is never productive or useful.

I would tend to agree. But the information is useful. Anytime I can put good information out there for reasonable people to see and be aware of, I think it’s worth engaging. Lots of eyes on topics like this

Besides, the ignore button is incredibly useful….

 

[Treeshark]

As for your questions, I’m sure you’ll come up with some answers on your own.

Deja vu… you too?

 

[Weimer]

This is a perfect example, thank you for mentioning. Yes, it (and other best management practices) did slow CWD down in Wyoming and Colorado, that is quite clear to even the most casual observer. Though, I’m sure if youre upset about baiting restrictions of some kind, motivated reasoning will deter you from actually assessing the facts around this topic.

But back to the example you mention. Saskatchewan, where baiting is a widely held practice, and where essentially zero best management practices were followed, climbed to the highest prevalence rate in the world faster than any other place on earth. In fact, in 20 years, they surpassed disease prevalence in Colorado, where it had been for over 40 years. Wyoming has essentially just recently reached those same levels, and they too are around the 40 yr mark.

Given the research around environmental transmission, infectivity and minimum infectious doses, I think it’s unlikely that a lot of animals are becoming positive from a single contact with another positive animal, or from licking a branch. But instead, it is repeated and prolonged exposure that is playing a significant role in disease transmission.

Furthermore, they can detect infectious prions that are being deposited by positive animals onto feeders and into feed. So, in these instances, you will have animals repeatedly(Perhaps daily) licking and ingesting infectious material. This is from another study not yet published, but the results are quite conclusive.

How has it helped Wyoming? They are still in dire conditions. How are the herd conditions between Kansas and Wyoming? Wyoming and Saskatchewan?

The theory, saliva at a bait site bad vs saliva on a licking branch good is laughable at best disingenuous on the other end.

What about guzzlers or water tanks? Do those not congregate deer. Let me guess you have a study that states guzzlers are fine.

 

[Sask hunter]

Baiting has no effect on CWD. CWD is highest in Mulies and they don’t hit a bait like a WT. right now our areas with no CWD is all northern Sask. know what’s up there an outfitters deer bait every mile. We have tried to cull our way out of it. That doesn’t work. I’m not sure what the answer is but at this point I say let Mother Nature run its course and we will slowly rebuild our herds probably to a lower level of deer that are CWD resistant but at least be able to get some age on our deer again to shoot big bucks. The deer naturally gather here. Get a couple feet of snow in the ground and those deer are in huge herds all winter on whatever bail or spilled grain they can find. my bait sight with 6-12 deer on it is nothing compared to their winter behaviour

 

[Sask hunter]

If anything I think culling spreads the disease worst. Guys shoot deer load them up take them home. Carcasses are dumped who knows where after being butchered. And your pushing the deer all around the country side trying to kill them

 

[brocksw]

Baiting has no effect on CWD. CWD is highest in Mulies and they don’t hit a bait like a WT. right now our areas with no CWD is all northern Sask. know what’s up there an outfitters deer bait every mile. We have tried to cull our way out of it. That doesn’t work. I’m not sure what the answer is but at this point I say let Mother Nature run its course and we will slowly rebuild our herds probably to a lower level of deer that are CWD resistant but at least be able to get some age on our deer again to shoot big bucks. The deer naturally gather here. Get a couple feet of snow in the ground and those deer are in huge herds all winter on whatever bail or spilled grain they can find. my bait sight with 6-12 deer on it is nothing compared to their winter behaviour

It’s an interesting dynamic isn’t it? It’s one I’ve had a lot of conversations about.


But I would disagree that mule deer don’t hit “bait”. Certainly, they won’t hit a corn pile like a while tail. But there are plenty of recommendations on hunting forums around which type of minerals to use to attract mule deer, and lots of people attesting to their effectiveness.

Additionally, elk will hit bait like a whitetail, and they’ll also hit the same mineral licks as mule deer. Essentially making them a vector in a situation like that, contaminating artificial and natural mineral licks.

A few minutes on MM, archerytalk, even rokslide will yield those discussions.

Mule deer and salt licks

www.utahwildlife.net

Mule deer and salt licks

www.utahwildlife.net

Baiting mule deer | Mule Deer

Just curious if anyone has ever done it. It seems like you can bait almost every animal but mule deer. I've never heard of it being done. We spot and stalk them here in Nevada. We have too many streams to try hunting waterholes.

www.monstermuleys.info

Mule deer attractants | Mule Deer

I'm looking for some feedback on what people have used to attract mule deer. Both liquids and if anyone has had success using an eastern style whitetail feeder. Not looking to hunt over it as it is now illegal here and not really looking for a moral argument. I've tried corn, COB, sweet feed...

www.monstermuleys.info

Best mule deer attractant besides trophy rock

I want to pair trophy rock with another attractant, so far I'm looking at critterlick or buck jam. Any suggestions?

rokslide.com

To be clear, you’re saying that “right now our areas with no CWD is all northern Sask. know what’s up there an outfitters deer bait every mile” and you’re referring to the area circled in red?

 

[brocksw]

We have tried to cull our way out of it. That doesn’t work. I’m not sure what the answer is but at this point I say let Mother Nature run its course and we will slowly rebuild our herds probably to a lower level of deer that are CWD resistant but at least be able to get some age on our deer again to shoot big bucks.

I would agree that Saskatchewans culling efforts 20 years ago were a bit of a mess. Kind of a “spray and pray” method. That did little, and like you say, probably pushed it around more than it helped. But I would say culling these days is no longer like that. Much more controlled and focused, even down to family groups. Back then there was a thought that if you guys killed enough deer it would get rid of it all together. That was obviously incorrect.

 

[Sask hunter]

I would agree that Saskatchewans culling efforts 20 years ago were a bit of a mess. Kind of a “spray and pray” method. That did little, and like you say, probably pushed it around more than it helped. But I would say culling these days is no longer like that. Much more controlled and focused, even down to family groups. Back then there was a thought that if you guys killed enough deer it would get rid of it all together. That was obviously incorrect.

Well that’s next level culling. The culls never went well here. Back in the day it was earn a buck no limit. Two does got you a buck tag. People filled trucks of deer. I can’t remember for sure but I think they went to a bit more controlled where you could only earn one or maybe two buck tags. Now they have just drastically increased deer tags in the CWD areas. Although they did big cutbacks this year now.

 

[Sask hunter]

It’s an interesting dynamic isn’t it? It’s one I’ve had a lot of conversations about. I mean, I would disagree that mule deer don’t hit “bait”. Certainly, they won’t hit a corn pile like a while tail. But there are plenty of recommendations on hunting forums around which type of minerals to use to attract mule deer, and lots of people attesting to their effectiveness. A few minutes on MM, archerytalk, even rokslide will yield those discussions.

Mule deer and salt licks

www.utahwildlife.net

Mule deer and salt licks

www.utahwildlife.net

Baiting mule deer | Mule Deer

Just curious if anyone has ever done it. It seems like you can bait almost every animal but mule deer. I've never heard of it being done. We spot and stalk them here in Nevada. We have too many streams to try hunting waterholes.

www.monstermuleys.info

Mule deer attractants | Mule Deer

I'm looking for some feedback on what people have used to attract mule deer. Both liquids and if anyone has had success using an eastern style whitetail feeder. Not looking to hunt over it as it is now illegal here and not really looking for a moral argument. I've tried corn, COB, sweet feed...

www.monstermuleys.info

Best mule deer attractant besides trophy rock

I want to pair trophy rock with another attractant, so far I'm looking at critterlick or buck jam. Any suggestions?

rokslide.com

To be clear, you’re saying that “right now our areas with no CWD is all northern Sask. know what’s up there an outfitters deer bait every mile” and you’re referring to the area circled in red?
View attachment 331246

Yes that red area is the primary outfitting in Sask as that’s all public land. I have never heard of anyone in Sask nor myself has ever sat over bait for mule deer. On my old phone I have pictures of fields full of deer from my last time down in southern Sask pheasant hunting. Honestly 200 deer in a field

 

[Sask hunter]

Also the one other thing we have in that northern area with no CWD is no mule deer. Maybe need to get in a chopper and gun down every mule deer to stop CWD. As a general rule of thumb further north you go in Sask less CWD and less mule deer