Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission Meeting - January 15 - 16, 2020

[AvidIndoorsman]

And conservation taxes aren't popular at all!
Nevermind that 78% of Republicans surveyed in Arkansas approve of the conservation sales tax.

and.... bam bam baaaa TABOR means Colorado can't do a conservation sale tax, mechanism #1

 

[COEngineer]

Looks to me like the legislature has not had any problems finding ways around TABOR:

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Looks to me like the legislature has not had any problems finding ways around TABOR:
View attachment 127536

Yes the delta (difference between gray and bar graph blue in your table) is Colorado Enterprises and other Revenue Exempt agencies for instance the City of Denver and a number of municipalities have voted to get rid of TABOR as it applies to them.

At the end of the day you are going to pay for public services, would you rather that appear as a sale tax or income tax or would you rather that be via a toll, fee, license, etc?

Currently we, hunter's, pay for the majority of Colorado's wildlife management, through our license dollars. When wolves come into the picture in a real way, we will bear that cost all on our own. That pretty much goes for every public service in our state. Personally I would like all Colorado residents to have some skin in the game when it comes to wildlife and transportation. You moved here and screwed up ski traffic you should have to pay for our roads, you want to vote to have wolves kill our elk, you have to pay for it via a line item on your income tax.

Lot's of free rides being given out, in the name of "no new taxes"

Here are the other business enterprises in CO:
State Lottery,
 College Assist,
 CollegeInvest,
 Division of Parks and Wildlife,
 State Nursing Homes,
 Division of Correctional Industries,
 Petroleum Storage Tank Fund,
 State Fair Authority,
 Division of Brand Inspection,
 Clean Screen Authority,
 Capitol Parking Authority,
 Statewide Transportation Enterprise,
 Statewide Bridge Enterprise,
 Unemployment Insurance Enterprise,
 Electronic Recording Technology Fund.

Department of Transportation/ Department of Bridge Care/ Parking Authority/ Tolling authority (Why is E-470 a toll road, why was the new lane on I-70 up to the mountains a toll, why is the new expansion on I-70 in Denver a Toll road)


At the end of the day you are going to pay for public services, would you rather that appear as a sale tax or income tax or would you rather that be via a toll, fee, license, etc?

 

[mountainlaurel3]

I went to the elk management plan meeting in Durango Thursday night. Parks and wildlife employees stressed that the change to limited archery was meant to give greater control of cow harvest and was not anticipated to create zones that would take many/any preference points. Also talked about calf mortality being multi-factorial. Loss of wintering range, drought, predators, trails/roads/recreationalists, all contributing.

Crowd concerns seemed mostly about bear/lion harvest and some grumbling about the resident/nonresident tag split.

Also, the head CPW guy's mustache: win.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I went to the elk management plan meeting in Durango Thursday night. Parks and wildlife employees stressed that the change to limited archery was meant to give greater control of cow harvest and was not anticipated to create zones that would take many/any preference points. Also talked about calf mortality being multi-factorial. Loss of wintering range, drought, predators, trails/roads/recreationalists, all contributing.

Crowd concerns seemed mostly about bear/lion harvest and some grumbling about the resident/nonresident tag split.

Also, the head CPW guy's mustache: win.

Appreciate the recap. They mentioned at the La Junta meeting that tag allocation was not part of the season setting process, did they mention if that would be discussed at some point?

 

[mountainlaurel3]

If I recall, they said that decision was for the 5 year season structure process? They didn't seem super interested in discussing it, which seems fair to me as these employees have no control over that allocation.

 

[Oak]

Appreciate the recap. They mentioned at the La Junta meeting that tag allocation was not part of the season setting process, did they mention if that would be discussed at some point?

It will now just be part of the annual license quota-setting process in May.

If I recall, they said that decision was for the 5 year season structure process? They didn't seem super interested in discussing it, which seems fair to me as these employees have no control over that allocation.

Actually the local DWMs and area biologists are responsible for setting the quota/allocations, which are then approved by the commission. Mustache man = Area Manager Matt Thorpe, supervisor of the local DWMs.

 

[mountainlaurel3]

It will now just be part of the annual license quota-setting process in May.

Actually the local DWMs and area biologists are responsible for setting the quota/allocations, which are then approved by the commission. Mustache man = Area Manager Matt Thorpe, supervisor of the local DWMs.

Ah, sorry, I meant setting the non-resident/resident tag split rather than the actual tag numbers for each hunt code. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Muley_Stalker]

The thread that wouldn't die.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Hey @grasshopper see the list?

Archery hunters in SW CO still got to build pref points and get a tag.

Perhaps not the disaster CBA claimed.

@COEngineer and @Oak

 

[grasshopper]

Not sure what your point is, sounds like your trying to say I told you so, but that is not what we said.

All those available licenses, as of now, are displaced OTC bowhunters that are going to make someone elses hunt suck when they stay with an OTC tag. It did exactly what we said, in displacing hunters. Maybe guys jump back in to swoop up leftovers but many either bailed out or did not know. Told ya so.

What was the whole point? Crowding ain't going down, NR's may get all those tags and cha-shing goes the register. The quota was not going to reduce crowding. Crap, they gave archers a boatload of PLO either sex tags while PUBLIC LAND HUNTERS GET BULL ONLY TAGS. How is that going to help the herd? Cha- ching for CPW, NR's, outfitters and LO's. The whole thing was stupid, that is my opinion. So is unit 14, the calf ratio in GMU14 is best in state.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Not sure what your point is, sounds like your trying to say I told you so, but that is not what we said.
Yes I am saying just that.

All those available licenses, as of now, are displaced OTC bowhunters that are going to make someone elses hunt suck when they stay with an OTC tag. It did exactly what we said, in displacing hunters. Maybe guys jump back in to swoop up leftovers but many either bailed out or did not know. Told ya so.

No the point is there are no displaced OTC hunters. You can put PP for your first choice, archery 75, or what have you as second choice, draw a tag and get a point. Exactly as you could last year. This specifically was an argument used by CBA as why OTC hunters will stop hunting those units. Overall elk apps were up this year by ~10,000 I imagine a fair number of these were folks who hunt OTC tossing in an app and hunting the same unit just like they always have.

I'm sure the draw did spook some hunters into not applying as they weren't sure how the draw would go down... proofs in the pudding and knowing they will get a tag as a second choice they will jump back in.

What was the whole point? Crowding ain't going down, NR's may get all those tags and cha-shing goes the register. The quota was not going to reduce crowding. Crap, they gave archers a boatload of PLO either sex tags while PUBLIC LAND HUNTERS GET BULL ONLY TAGS. How is that going to help the herd? Cha- ching for CPW, NR's, outfitters and LO's. The whole thing was stupid, that is my opinion. So is unit 14, the calf ratio in GMU14 is best in state.

The whole point was giving CPW greater control over the number of hunters in the field. Before they had zero control, now they can reduce hunters numbers across the board (archery, muzzy, rifle)

You do realize that there is no cap on NR for OTC tags? Limited tags do have a NR cap... so ?

I do agree these measures won't have significant positive impact on the herd this year. I applaud providing CPW with the ability to ameliorate the current situation, but I cognizant of the fact that nothing is really happening to fix the current situation down in SW CO. The elk herd down there has gone of a cliff.

Where you and I differ is that I am conservative in my view of wildlife management. I prefer to error on the side of caution and maintaining the herd, you seem to prefer very liberal tag allocation and focus more on maintaining hunter numbers.

We are coming at this from different angles and that is totally fine.

 

[Pucky Freak]

No the point is there are no displaced OTC hunters. You can put PP for your first choice, archery 75, or what have you as second choice, draw a tag and get a point. Exactly as you could last year. This specifically was an argument used by CBA as why OTC hunters will stop hunting those units. Overall elk apps were up this year by ~10,000 I imagine a fair number of these were folks who hunt OTC tossing in an app and hunting the same unit just like they always have.

I'm sure the draw did spook some hunters into not applying as they weren't sure how the draw would go down... proofs in the pudding and knowing they will get a tag as a second choice they will jump back in.

I think this will end up being mostly to somewhat true. But I also think a significant amount OTC archery displacement will occur for a couple of reasons:

-OTC allows you to make a decision about where you’ll be hunting in Sept, whereas if you want to archery hunt SW CO you need to decide by March, or in some cases June, with the draw application. Late decision-makers who once hunted this region might now move their hunt to an OTC CO archery unit elsewhere.

-You have to pay an extra $80 to draw vs. OTC

-A lot of eastern hunters have little to no interest in understanding draw systems, and do not enjoy navigating them.

Most or all parties would be better off repealing TABOR, and eliminating OTC archery elk for 2021. But because of the funding handcuffs, we’ll likely see a gradual conversion of OTC archery units over several years until they’re all gone.

EDIT: I doubt all the new 2020 10k CO elk draw applicants are converted OTC hunters. Some is just growth of new hunters, as has been seen in increases of applicants of all or nearly all western states across species.

 

[grasshopper]

wllm - whatever.

Fact, when E-16 went to OTC bull only, participation dropped from 1485 to around 400. 1,000 guys who used to hunt OTC in E-16 hunted OTC somewhere else.

By the leftover list, thousands of OTC bowhunters in the SW will be hunting OTC in some elses OTC spot. When they limit GMU 14, another 1,000 will be displaced. Next will be Grand county 18 & 28. Likely a thousand or two more going to someone elses spot that is already way overcrowded. 30,000 hunters get more crowding while a few get less. It is stupid.

You can put yourself on the tall pedestal of "good for the herd", I am sticking with love my hunting neighbor. If it was about the herd, shut down the dam OTC rifle tags, and cut 6 month PLO quotas! Totally supportive of more quailty units, but everyone gets cut - not just bowhunters.

None of this impacts me personally, I have a limited archery bull tag, a limited PLO cow B tag, a limited PLO cow C tag, a PLO buck tag and a desert sheep tag. I won't hunt OTC, but I will stand up for my buddies that want that, you should try it sometime.

All that said, no offense or ill will intended. Go hunt while you can.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I think this will end up being mostly to somewhat true. But I also think a significant amount OTC archery displacement will occur for a couple of reasons:

-OTC allows you to make a decision about where you’ll be hunting in Sept, whereas if you want to archery hunt SW CO you need to decide by March, or in some cases June, with the draw application. Late decision-makers who once hunted this region might now move their hunt to an OTC CO archery unit elsewhere.

-You have to pay an extra $80 to draw vs. OTC

-A lot of eastern hunters have little to no interest in understanding draw systems, and do not enjoy navigating them.

Most or all parties would be better off repealing TABOR, and eliminating OTC archery elk for 2021. But because of the funding handcuffs, we’ll likely see a gradual conversion of OTC archery units over several years until they’re all gone.

EDIT: I doubt all the new 2020 10k CO elk draw applicants are converted OTC hunters. Some is just growth of new hunters, as has been seen in increases of applicants of all or nearly all western states across species.

My guess is that given the current archery quota you will likely be able to buy a tag right up until the beginning of the season + left over tags don’t require the application fee or qualifying license.

wllm - whatever.

Fact, when E-16 went to OTC bull only, participation dropped from 1485 to around 400. 1,000 guys who used to hunt OTC in E-16 hunted OTC somewhere else.

By the leftover list, thousands of OTC bowhunters in the SW will be hunting OTC in some elses OTC spot. When they limit GMU 14, another 1,000 will be displaced. Next will be Grand county 18 & 28. Likely a thousand or two more going to someone elses spot that is already way overcrowded. 30,000 hunters get more crowding while a few get less. It is stupid.

You can put yourself on the tall pedestal of "good for the herd", I am sticking with love my hunting neighbor. If it was about the herd, shut down the dam OTC rifle tags, and cut 6 month PLO quotas! Totally supportive of more quailty units, but everyone gets cut - not just bowhunters.

None of this impacts me personally, I have a limited archery bull tag, a limited PLO cow B tag, a limited PLO cow C tag, a PLO buck tag and a desert sheep tag. I won't hunt OTC, but I will stand up for my buddies that want that, you should try it sometime.

All that said, no offense or ill will intended. Go hunt while you can.

Couple of different things to unpack here.

This is about the season structure and draw rules, not quotas. I think this was a step forward on the regs, I like you, disagree with the quotas. 100% agree most of the harvest comes during the rifle seasons, the rifle quotas need to be reduced, esp the cow quotas.

I think CO should eliminate all OTC seasons across the board (rifle and archery). Why do we have a completely different draw structure just for elk? @ElkFever2 seems like plenty of NR hunt deer in CO, in fact I think in many ways Colorado is seen as one of the best mule deer states. I'm sure NR will figure out the applications to hunt elk ~90,000 NR did this year.

@grasshopper my stance would have been the exact same if this had been elimination of OTC rifle instead of archery.

If we eliminate all OTC hunting you won't see displacement between units, CPW will be able to manage individual units better, it will simplify the overall system, and you will still be able to get an elk tag.

My entire point is that these units are a good demonstration of that will happen if we go fully limited. Quotas in many units will be large, often exceeding demand. Some people will apply for 0 and 1 pt units, some will opt for a pp and a left over, and some people wont want to pay the app fee and/or want to wait and will get their tag off the leftover list. This is already how the deer system works to some degree, elk hunts have lower success rates than deer so by that fact alone you can issue more tags and therefore there will be more leftover opportunity.

"Well I just like it the way it is" is not a good reason to stop improving our system.

 

[Pucky Freak]

left over tags don’t require the application fee or qualifying license.

From p.1 of the CO 2020 regs: “Applicants must have a qualifying license to apply for the secondary draw.”

 

[vanish]

From p.1 of the CO 2020 regs: “Applicants must have a qualifying license to apply for the secondary draw.”

Secondary draw is not leftover tags. Leftover tags are those still available after the secondary draw.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

From p.1 of the CO 2020 regs: “Applicants must have a qualifying license to apply for the secondary draw.”

Leftover and reissued list is different from the secondary draw.

I'm talking about a post Aug 9th tag purchase.

 

[grasshopper]

"Well I just like it the way it is" is not a good reason to stop improving our system.

For many, the system is working great, all they want is to go hunting. Who are we to tell them it should change?

“Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge… is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world. It requires profound purpose larger than the self kind of understanding.”
― Bill Bullard

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

"Well I just like it the way it is" is not a good reason to stop improving our system.

For many, the system is working great, all they want is to go hunting. Who are we to tell them it should change?

“Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge… is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world. It requires profound purpose larger than the self kind of understanding.”
― Bill Bullard

The system isn’t working, many find it problematic.

Success rates are down 50% in some units/ season ie 75/751.

If sportsman had stopped when things were good enough for some would we have elk in Kentucky? Moose in CO? Turkeys in most states?