Colo Point Banking

[drthornton]

Good responses Matt and Zach. I am somewhat trophy minded and you guys helped me get this thru my thick skull. For Elk anyway...CO is an "Opportunity State" pure and simple. I think maybe the real issue with point creep is a state trying to be something they are not.

I'd still like to archery Elk hunt 61

 

[Zach]

I'd still like to archery Elk hunt 61

You and everyone else.


I will say, the unit I hunt has low 300's potential on a consistent basis. A buddy shot a 320 a few years ago.

This is me holding it. I'm not a big fella though, so it may appear larger.

 

[drthornton]

Very nice bull Zach! I'd say killing a bull like that in an OTC unit is a greater achievement than 350 in a top end unit.

 

[jimss]

Here's one of my posts from the Bowsite.com:

I think everyone would agree that limited tags are becoming tougher to draw throughout the West. A great example of "shrinkage" here in Colo is landowner tags will increase and public tags decrease in the 2015 application period. Everyone wants a piece of the pie!

As more and more hunters give up on drawing the highest demand units (2, 10, and 201) point creep for lower pref pt units continue to creep. What a lot of guys don't consider is the number of hunters that just apply for pref pts every year hoping someday they will be able to draw a top tier limited tag.

Many applicants are realizing their dream of hunting 2, 10 , or 201 elk will likely never happen. This is where point banking comes in and will drive 0 to 10 pref pt units through the roof! Hunters are figuring out that they better get with the program and forget about top tier tags and draw/hunt mid-tier tags. I'm sure everyone agrees that it's pretty tough to burn 18 pref pts on a unit that only takes 10 to draw! I'm wondering if this is possibly where the mind-set for those that voted favorably to pt banking in the CBA pole? Many guys that voted in favor likely didn't know what point banking is and others had their own short-term motives in mind!

If you ask me this is a very selfish way to look at drawing tags....especially if you consider looking at this issue long term. When I talk about pt banking being a horrible idea I'm considering long term effects on young hunters, new hunters just starting out, and hunters 20 years from today. I'm laying to rest my own selfish wishes for drawing tags and thinking about the future of hunting in Colorado.

There is a lot of misconception that pt banking will drive lower pref pt units up intitally and then point creep will slow or return to normal. I actually believe the opposite will happen. Once pref pt creep increases by leaps and bounds it will continue to increase because of the ever increasing high demand for these tags. What took 0 to 2 pref pts today will likely increase to 2 to 4 pref pts and so on! I've yet to see a draw system where draw odds decreased once they increased. Hunters that aren't able to draw original 0 to 2 pref pt units will wait more years to accumulate pref pts to draw the same units.

There are a lot of great big game draw options available currently in Colo....we are actually spoiled. If pt banking comes into play I can almost guarantee things will change in dramatic fashion for the worse! I hate to say it, but I'll be saying "I told you so" to the CBA 5 years down the road if pt banking is accepted! HORRIBLE IDEA...end of story!

 

[jlmatthew]

Folks (like me) chose to accumulate points and now that they don't get the GMU they want they think they should be compensated for it. So now if point banking comes back guys like me with 13 elk points can keep Zach out of his 0 point area for the next 5-7 years. Zach was smart and didn't get in the point game and now he gets punished by selfish folks pushing this.

I have 17 antelope points too, so looks like I can bump guys there too

I'd personally like to see preference points made into bonus points (Name thrown in the hat however many points you have)

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

So we basically keep guys in the points pools longer letting them burn off a few at a time and we make it harder to get new hunters into the field?
DUMB

Cutting out the points only options would be a better idea. Hunt or don't apply and don't kick a guy out if he can't afford to apply for a tag for a few seasons.

 

[JohnCushman]

I'm still waiting for jims to explain how he gets off saying that the CBA acted without input from the members...that's a bold faced lie

 

[Carrion Carrier]

I wish the point systems would just go away.

 

[Zach]

So we basically keep guys in the points pools longer letting them burn off a few at a time and we make it harder to get new hunters into the field?
DUMB

Cutting out the points only options would be a better idea. Hunt or don't apply and don't kick a guy out if he can't afford to apply for a tag for a few seasons.

I half agree with the 2nd statement. I say put a cap on how many years you can apply for a PP only. I have a feeling tons of guys are putting in for a PP then buying an OTC tag, so in a sense they are having their cake and eating it too.

On the other hand, I am point banking for my kids in hopes that they can draw a youth RFW tag on a primo ranch the last year they are eligible for youth hunts.

On the 2nd half of the statement, I do believe you have up to 10 years of not applying before you lose your currently banked points.

 

[1_pointer]

Cutting out point only options in CO really won't change much. A few may drop out if they made you submit the bull tag price instead of the cow tag price, but I doubt it would be enough to matter. Since it's a preference point, I just apply for a unit that requires more points than I have and will still get my point. In this case, a points only option probably cuts down on DOW busy work...

 

[Jorgy]

On the other hand, I am point banking for my kids in hopes that they can draw a youth RFW tag on a primo ranch the last year they are eligible for youth hunts.

Ranching for Wildlife are all Type A tags, youths don't get any preference

Youths only get preference for doe tags.

 

[Zach]

Ranching for Wildlife are all Type A tags, youths don't get any preference

Youths only get preference for doe tags.

You sure about that? Elk specifically?

jlmatthew had his son on a hunt a few years ago, specifically for a youth draw.

 

[jimss]

It sounds like only 520 out of 2317 (less than 23%) CBA members responded to their poll. Not exactly what I would call a reputable sample of its members? As seen in this and other internet post a lot of guys still question what exactly point banking is and have no idea of the consequences? Mark my word..the effects of point banking will be significant! With so many unanswered questions and implications that will significantly effect the difficulty for drawing tags in future years I can't imagine the CPW would even consider passing this!

I'm not sure if any of you are aware but the CBA supported the landowner tag increase in Colorado that will go into effect in 2015. This offers a larger chunk of tags that originally everyone could apply for that now go into a separate landowner tag pool. WAY TO GO CBA!

 

[jimss]

Joshcushman, do you have any response to my last post? The CBA polls are a joke! How many hunters in Colo believe that taking tags away from the public pool of tags and issuing them in the landowner draw pool is a great idea? Everyone should be aware that the CBA supported this and now point banking! HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE representation of all hunters in Colorado!!!! The CBA polls are a joke!

 

[Zach]

It sounds like only 520 out of 2317 (less than 23%) CBA members responded to their poll. Not exactly what I would call a reputable sample of its members? As seen in this and other internet post a lot of guys still question what exactly point banking is and have no idea of the consequences? Mark my word..the effects of point banking will be significant! With so many unanswered questions and implications that will significantly effect the difficulty for drawing tags in future years I can't imagine the CPW would even consider passing this!

I'm not sure if any of you are aware but the CBA supported the landowner tag increase in Colorado that will go into effect in 2015. This offers a larger chunk of tags that originally everyone could apply for that now go into a separate landowner tag pool. WAY TO GO CBA!

74.62% of those that answered the survey voted YES to point banking. 13.27% voted NO and 12.12% voted UNSURE. 520 people answered the survey. This was received in an email a while back with the results of the survey CBA sent out.

http://www.coloradobowhunting.org/Resources/Documents/BGSS-Survey Results_140130.pdf

I would say that the statistics can be a bit misleading, much like voting polls.

 

[BuzzH]

Hey jims...remember when you were arguing with me why point systems are a joke? I recall you arguing that I didnt know what I was talking about. You railed on and on about why it would be a good thing if WY Residents had a PP system for elk, deer, and pronghorn.

Remember when I told you how they all get changed over time?

Now you're singing the blues over exactly what I told you happens with all these great point systems.

Have you now seen the light on why point systems are a huge risk and why many are against them?

I told you so....again.

 

[jimss]

Buzz, I'm not exactly singing the blues about pref pts. They definitely work in Wyo's draw system for deer, elk, and antelope. I draw super antelope units in Wyo every year, deer and elk every few years. The same can be said for all but the toughest limited units in Colo that get a lot of publicity.

What Wyo's system has above Colo's current system is a pool of nonres tags go in a random draw where every applicant has a chance to draw....plus their is a pool of nonres tags that go to those that have high pref pts. I really like Wyo's pref pt system and am excited they offer it to nonres! I also like bonus pt systems similar to NV and UT that are somewhat similar to Wyo's nonres system.

The reason I'm singing is because I'm 99% sure what point banking will do to Colo's current pref pt system. At the present time it's possible to draw many big game tags with few to 0 pref pts. Point banking will change this and create "point leaping" in all units! Although Colo's pref pt isn't perfect it is better than not having a pt system...especially for deer where every deer unit in Colo is a limited unit. There are currently INCREDIBLE deer options available in Colo that only take a pt or 2 to draw. With pt banking this will definitely change for the worse!! Obviously elk are different because there are only a handful of limited elk units spread throughout Colo that all applicants are vying for.

 

[BuzzH]

jims,

You said the Colorado system worked good too...right up until point banking happens. Then you start crying about how unfair it will be.

This is exactly what I told you...and you didnt listen, just like you arent listening now, that point systems are made for corruption. Believe it now?

You also better enjoy Wyoming's NR point scheme NOW, as the rules are about to change on the allocations to NR's. I can assure you that by 2016, NR's will be limited to 10% of sheep, moose, goat, and bison tags, just like I told you was going to happen.

I'm sure there will also be legislation introduced in WY to further limit NR allocations on pronghorn, elk, and deer as well.

I dont feel sorry for you about point banking in Colorado...the system you like so well is why its happening.

The point systems you trumpet about being so good are going to end up reducing your opportunities.

Gotta love those point systems!

 

[Jorgy]

You sure about that? Elk specifically?

jlmatthew had his son on a hunt a few years ago, specifically for a youth draw.

Positive - they can still draw the tag, but they don't get any preference

 

[LopeHunter]

Point systems are flawed. Everyone of them.

All point systems take one subset of hunters and make them special.

Take Wyoming as an example. If you applied for the past 20 years then you were in the max point pool. Anyone starting to apply in just the next year is disadvantaged in that for years they will only have a chance at the random portion of the draw pool of tags.

How is that fair? Do you want inherently unfair systems in place? If you are selfish then of course you do. Screw your grandkids draw odds. Let's not only saddle them with national debt from our free-spending ways but let's put them at a significant disadvantage in awarding hunt tags. Do not forget that only one year of applicants gets the Golden-est of Golden tickets. Just one. Not fair.

Look at NV. If you are just starting the application game in NV then you are not just a bit behind the curve, you are statistically way to the back of the line. Your kid starts applying this year and has one ping pong in the hopper. If I started 10 years ago then I have 101 ping pong balls. Your kid has a chance, of course, but I have 101x more of a chance. Fair?

I am probably as selfish as the next person. I love when I am respected for being loyal and old and what not. Give me a discount on a cup of coffee. Let me get every 10th pizza for free. Those are items that a vendor is selling and I have a choice to go across the street to spend my money at a competitor. Game tags are not owned by a business. Is unfair to set up rewards for loyal and old guys when is hunting tags which we all own.