Bounty Hunting

[The Hedgehog]

Okay what do you guys think of this: Giant Utah Bull thread on Bowsite

Couple things, I'm assuming everything was 110% legit legal in the hunt. Fair chase, public land, wild animal.. etc. Also, I believe the hunter is a very, very experienced and seasoned outdoorsman with as much hunting experience as about anybody.

But.. what do you think of this trend of buying the high-dollar tags and hiring possees of help? I'd give a left one to hunt an animal like that.. but all those people.. How can the animal even have a chance?

 

[Moosie]

I'm going to be one of the Few "poor" guys with no money that's doesn't have a problem with it, But I don't. Alot of guys complain about hunting going to the Rich, butthe money that get's put back in is crazy as well. No one see's that side. Hunts like this alot more get put into the Outfitters pocket... But special Gov tag holders have to buy them and alot of that money goes to the right places.

Everyone tries to edge their way in hunting. Some people jsut hunt General tags, Some people hire Outfitters, Some people put in for special draws and LE tags.

As far as a chance, that bull had less of a chance then if it was done without a Group of guides/outfitters helping him but thats What Doyle does. He helps his Clients find and get onto big critters.

The only way to stop somethnig liek that is making Outfitting illegal. Not that I'm opposed to that, at all.... But that bull was taken legit so there's not to much to say ?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Making outfitting illegal?? Huh? I do think it's sad so many tags are offered to the highest bidder out of the general draw pool.

I feel cheesy enough setting up my tripod and camera to take a hero photo of myself and some recent kill.. but gads.. with 8 other guys?!? Personally, I'd be ashamed to pay somebody a "finder's fee".. much less pose with 8 other guys on my dole and an animal I just killed.

 

[Oak]

IMO, if I had the money to buy one of those tags, I wouldn't need to work during hunting season. I'd pick a couple of my best hunting friends and go look for a big one. I just can't see paying to have 8-10 guys keep tabs on "the big one" all summer and fall so that I can swirl in and whack him in a couple of days.

I don't think the "money is going to a good cause" argument holds any water. There are lots of other ways to make money, with or without the use of tags, that don't exploit the animals the way the current system does.

Moosie, making outfitting illegal is not the only way to stop this from happening. If there was not a guaranteed source of tags available to the highest bidder, folks like Doyle couldn't spend the money for all those people and gamble that a high roller was going to draw a tag every year.

 

[Dinkshooter]

I think those pictures are funny as hell. It looks like the starving village just ran up to see what the great hunter has just killed...........................we're saved, we're saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We will make the winter!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't say I would do the same, but then again doubt I will ever have that kind of cash. The only thing that bugs me are the rumors those guys mess with others who drew the tag. Not sure there is any truth to that or not but if true they need a A^% kicking.

 

[Oak]

Another thing: somebody on another forum asked the other day whether people thought that more 400" bulls were killed every year in UT, or more 400" sets of sheds were picked up. The consensus was that many more bulls were killed. Of course! What friggin kind of chance does a 400" bull have of making it through the season over there?!

 

[MNHunter]

It makes me sick and I think it is a bunch of crap. I put it right up there with high fence "hunting".

 

[Moosie]

I killed my Utah Elk with the help from someone scouting.... there was also 5 of us packing it out even though it was jsut my bull. The only difference was :

A. It wasn't that big.
B. I didn't pay anything.
C. .... Well, that actually about it.

So How can I judge ?

 

[A-con]

I have no problem with outfitters in general.
I have no problem with raffle tags, anybody who can cough up twenty buck has a “chance”.
Auction tags start to make me a bit uneasy. Only the very wealthy have any chance of winning a bid on a tag that will sell for over a hundred grand. I wish all of these “Governors tags” were distributed by some type of raffle or drawing.

I don’t know Doyle Moss from Adam, but I certainly respect his reputation as a big bull expert and one of the best outfitters in Utah. There are two things that bother me a bit with all the giant Utah bulls his clients take.

#1, if you go to the Mossbacks website it says;
“There will be a trophy fee of $5,000.00 for any bull that grosses over 400”
I assume that a hunter has to produce a credit card with 5 grand available balance before the hunt. What happens if they take a hunter who doesn’t have, or won’t agree to the extra 5K ? Do they steer him away from the biggest bulls ? What happens if a monster comes in to the calls ?

#2 it also says “Additional scouting days @ $300 a day, and additional spotters @ $200 a day. It makes me wonder how many clients spend lots of money to put several dozen people in the hills for months to find and sit on a giant bull. I guess there is nothing questionable about that, but it still bugs me.

It is obvious from this that it isn’t just a matter of scraping up his standard outfitters fee. The more money you give him, the better your chances of taking a bigger bull and the sky is the limit

 

[schmalts]

I just look at it and say to myself... not impressed. I would be more impressed of a smaller animal with a couple of buddies in the picture and some open beers. To each is own i guess. What bothers me the most is the rich fugger can afford to hunt private ranches but instead, tags are pulled from the public land drawing for the same rich guys to hunt every year.
To bring up another point, I would be more impressed if he drew the tag and then hunted it.

 

[BigHornRam]

I have mixed feelings about this one. I've heard some bad stories. I've also heard some good ones (like most recently the big dall ram taken with the Yukon auction tag). Like Moosie said, lot's of money does go back to wildlife management and habitat. Not a fan of the big group photo, but that's just me personally. If the hunter is, then by all means go for it.

Oak you said......"There are lots of other ways to make money, with or without the use of tags, that don't exploit the animals the way the current system does."

Can you name a few other ways?

 

[Oak]

Oak you said......"There are lots of other ways to make money, with or without the use of tags, that don't exploit the animals the way the current system does."

Can you name a few other ways?

Raffle tags instead of auctioning them. Tags can not be trasferrable, and you limit the number of tickets a person can buy. It gives everyone an equal chance at the tag, and it is much less likely that someone who can afford Mossback's services as currently priced will pull the tag.

Do you think that Doyle Moss would have guided the above hunter if the hunter had insisted that he be the only one in the photos and Mossback could use no images or accounts of his hunts for promotion? I don't know...I'm just curious.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Maybe that guy drew the permit, hired an outfitter and those are just some of his friends. I don't know.. Browtine.. was that a purchased tag or drawn??

I walked over 25 miles yesterday wtih a backpack and never even saw an elk. I did try to sort out some tracks.. no luck though on catching up to them. Maybe I need to offer up a finder's fee in the Bozeman Daily Chronicle, and get some guys to come along and assist.. I'm not quitting yet.. I don't need a 400+, 340 would give me enough of a boner.

 

[A-con]

Raffle tags instead of auctioning them. Tags can not be trasferrable, and you limit the number of tickets a person can buy. It gives everyone an equal chance at the tag, and it is much less likely that someone who can afford Mossback's services as currently priced will pull the tag.

I think THAT is the answer, at least part of the answer.
With the right promotion, raffle tags can raise just as much money, and every body can play.
What happens with these high dollar auction tags, trophy fees, dozens of spotters and scouts and rich hunters flying in at the last minuet to pull the trigger blurs the line between high fence and wild, free ranging.

 

[BigHornRam]

Oak,

We did a raffle dall sheep hunt at our last fundraiser and lost money on it. Could not sell enough tickets to break even. To top it off, any winner of a 5K plus hunt has to pay taxes on it. I like the idea that the average guy does get a chance with a raffle, but for the most part, they do not raise the money that the auction tags do. They are also a lot of work to do.

 

[The Hedgehog]

But holy cow that bull is a MONSTER! I'll never see a wild elk that big in my life, pretty sure of that.

I have heard that hunter has been there - done that. Maybe he thought, "ya know - I think this year I'm going to go arrow a 450 bull and this is how I'm gonna do it."

 

[Moosie]

Schmalts.. I'm gunna pick on you. Your Post was jsut to full on BAby whining

I just look at it and say to myself... not impressed.

Any bull on public land taken you should be impressed. With a bow, Even more. That is just redickulous.

I would be more impressed of a smaller animal with a couple of buddies in the picture and some open beers.

If the picture had less guys in it, And they had Alchohol, then it would be good ?

What bothers me the most is the rich fugger can afford to hunt private ranches but instead, tags are pulled from the public land drawing for the same rich guys to hunt every year.

Now you're crying again because someone has money. What if you had the money to buy 50k acres and someone complained because you could hunt it and they couldn't ? What if you got LAnd owner tags because you bought that land and killed big bulls ? Would you ? Don't lie.... And yes, It's the same thing, Money got you the Tags.

To bring up another point, I would be more impressed if he drew the tag and then hunted it.

Whats the difference if he waits to draw or buys a tag and goes ? At least make good arguments, crying because he's rich jsut makes you look silly.

 

[Oak]

Oak,

We did a raffle dall sheep hunt at our last fundraiser and lost money on it. Could not sell enough tickets to break even. To top it off, any winner of a 5K plus hunt has to pay taxes on it. I like the idea that the average guy does get a chance with a raffle, but for the most part, they do not raise the money that the auction tags do. They are also a lot of work to do.

You're comparing apples to oranges. We are talking about auctioning tags, not auctioning guide services. A person can book a Dall sheep hunt any year they want to, but drawing a limited Utah elk tag? A person could go their whole life. I think it's easier for people to justify buying chances at something they might otherwise never be able to have. No tax issues with the tags, either.

Any bull on public land taken you should be impressed. With a bow, Even more. That is just redickulous.

I agree with you on that, Moosie. The guy did have to get close enough to shoot it with a bow.

Now you're crying again because someone has money. What if you had the money to buy 50k acres and someone complained because you could hunt it and they couldn't ? What if you got LAnd owner tags because you bought that land and killed big bulls ? Would you ? Don't lie.... And yes, It's the same thing, Money got you the Tags.

I don't have a problem with landowners getting tags to hunt their own property. But don't give them transferrable tags, or tags that are valid on public land.

It comes down to this: our public hunting opportunities should not be sold to the highest bidder. Moosie, I figured that you had spent enough time in Europe to know why that is a bad direction to head.

 

[Moosie]

Why not sell a handfull of tags to rich people ? I'm guessing if you got the Poaching stopped that people do you could see twice as many tags and not change the outcome. But thats a whole different topic

When there are thousands of statewide tags, why should a couple tags sold to rich guys matter ? Guys that want to hunt fair chase game not behind a fence ? I don't know this guy from Adam either, but sounds like he likes to hunt, has money and wants to maximize his hunting opportunities and go after the biggest game possible. No differnt then the rest of us putting in for tags, HE just has Money to buy one It's not like Every guy with a pocket book can do that. They sell a Goveners tag. The guy that ponies up the most coins wins. There are pleanty other Raffles, etc. What difference does that one tag make ? To me, Nothing.... Kudos to the guy.

This leads into Land owner tags, Etc. If someone is against a Goveners tag, You should also be against Landowner tags (I would think)..... But, the average Joe can buy a couple grand landowner tag. Not everyone can buy the Gov tag.

(I'm assuming this was the Goveners tag ? If it's not, the same arguement still applies). We have "SUPER TAGS" in Idaho, chances at those if you fill out your Harvest report on time or buy a lottery tag. Same thing, If you don't like the G-tag, you should be fighting to do away with them all.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Who knows if it was a purchased tag on this hunt? It could have been a draw tag. Can anybody say? I'm sure that guy is a heck of a hunter. Suprised to see him in that army photo. Moosie, in Utah, it's not "just a couple" tags. It's a lot of them.