TB- Glad to hear you don't approve of cross-country travel. One other thing to take into consideration with width, is length of travel. I'm sure the average ATVer will travel farther in a day than the average packer or foot soldier.
Blue Ribbon Coalition attacks hunters!
- Thread starter Ithaca 37
- Start date
Are you kidding me? You really think that the track they take is the only disturbance caused by ATV's? I think you're the one that attended LooneyBin U.
Do you think that deer or elk are affected at all by the noise and smell of ATVs? What is the area that those factors cover per section?
Oak
Do you think that deer or elk are affected at all by the noise and smell of ATVs? What is the area that those factors cover per section?
Oak
Ten Bears
New member
1-P, with authorized roads and trails the distance between point A & Point B does not change, no matter what the mode of travel. Then we are back to width disturbance versus weight induced errosion.
Is your glass half full or half empty????
OAK, are you saying that the animals don't become acclimatized to these activities? I know that around here they are even acclimatized to the start of hunting seasons, and adjust their survival behaviors to match. Do you really believe that deer and elk run hellbent for some other place at the sound or smell of an ATV???
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-02-2003 12:30: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
OAK, are you saying that the animals don't become acclimatized to these activities? I know that around here they are even acclimatized to the start of hunting seasons, and adjust their survival behaviors to match. Do you really believe that deer and elk run hellbent for some other place at the sound or smell of an ATV???
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-02-2003 12:30: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
TB- FWIW, my glass is half full, because I couldn't live life with a pessimisstic outlook. I play the hand delt and do the best I can. True the distance from point A to point B is the same. But, an ATV rider is more capable of making it to C, D, etc... You have an ATV. Which would you rather or be able to ride 50mi on in a single day, even over packed trails? Then we also have to consider the numbers of each. I know that I see alot more ATVs than horses when out and about.
Due to the distance travelled and the total numbers, ATVs are more destructive than horses. You are going to have to show me some pretty good data for me to change my mind.
Due to the distance travelled and the total numbers, ATVs are more destructive than horses. You are going to have to show me some pretty good data for me to change my mind.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ten beers said, "OAK, are you saying that the animals don't become acclimatized to these activities?"
They dont become "acclimatized" at all. I dont know where you come up with this shit, really I dont.
Big game responds to pressure, and I can tell you FOR A FACT, that elk constantly avoid some of the best habitat within their home ranges because of hunting pressure and in particular ATV's. Elk have 2 choices with fat-asses and ATV's around...either move out or die, thats the available options. Not many elk live long when they become "acclimatized" to ATV's...they end up a bloody, steaming mess on opening day.
I've read mountains of articles in Bugle, etc. about the effects of road densities on elk, and I've never read a single one that says, "elk just love the whine of ATV's...followed by a whiff of gas fumes and cordite..."
ATV's and the fat asses who ride them flat out ruin prime elk habitat...and theres no getting around that fact.
They dont become "acclimatized" at all. I dont know where you come up with this shit, really I dont.
Big game responds to pressure, and I can tell you FOR A FACT, that elk constantly avoid some of the best habitat within their home ranges because of hunting pressure and in particular ATV's. Elk have 2 choices with fat-asses and ATV's around...either move out or die, thats the available options. Not many elk live long when they become "acclimatized" to ATV's...they end up a bloody, steaming mess on opening day.
I've read mountains of articles in Bugle, etc. about the effects of road densities on elk, and I've never read a single one that says, "elk just love the whine of ATV's...followed by a whiff of gas fumes and cordite..."
ATV's and the fat asses who ride them flat out ruin prime elk habitat...and theres no getting around that fact.
Ten Bears
New member
BUZZ, please show me were as the # of ATV's increases, the decrease in game populations. You said <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I've read mountains of articles in Bugle, etc. about the effects of road densities on elk <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yet, I would say that sources such as BUGLE, while professional, may be biased in print. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Elk have 2 choices with fat-asses and ATV's around...either move out or die, thats the available options. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> WRONG, not always the only 2 options. How's that therapy going?
1-P, so are you opposed to ATV's using an access road/trail system because they can get to points C,D,E,..... quicker? I only go as far as I need to to get ahead of the crowd. Some days I only go a couple of miles from the house because the crowd is running so far past the local animals.
1-P, so are you opposed to ATV's using an access road/trail system because they can get to points C,D,E,..... quicker? I only go as far as I need to to get ahead of the crowd. Some days I only go a couple of miles from the house because the crowd is running so far past the local animals.
Not if it is a legal road. I am for the closing down of more roads, just too many of them.
Before I get slammed for being a hypocrit (see Elk forum), at the behest of a friend who put me on some elk I did use an ATV on a legal, open trail to get half of my elk out on Sun.
Before I get slammed for being a hypocrit (see Elk forum), at the behest of a friend who put me on some elk I did use an ATV on a legal, open trail to get half of my elk out on Sun.
Ithaca 37
New member
Ten, Just when I'm starting to think you can't post anything dumber, you ask this: "please show me were as the # of ATV's increases, the decrease in game populations."
Here's some reading for you:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=elk+populations+road+density+&btnG=Google+Search
When you get done reading the first two hundred links report back here with what you learned, if anything!
Then do a few searches yourself for info on ATVs, road density and elk/wildlife populations.
It's time for you to grow up, learn to do your own research, and quit bothering us with your ignorance.
Don't expect any replies from me for a week. I'm busy hunting.
Here's some reading for you:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=elk+populations+road+density+&btnG=Google+Search
When you get done reading the first two hundred links report back here with what you learned, if anything!
Then do a few searches yourself for info on ATVs, road density and elk/wildlife populations.
It's time for you to grow up, learn to do your own research, and quit bothering us with your ignorance.
Don't expect any replies from me for a week. I'm busy hunting.
JoseCuervo
New member
Ten,
This was a topic you were better off letting die.... Sometimes you should remain quiet, and let us think you are a fool, than post something, and remove all doubt....
Posted by Ten: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I never said they will not buy Elk Tags.... I used that as a "hypothetical" scenerio, as in "what if".... I used 17,500 as a hypothetical number once also remember??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And posted on November 21 at 16:11 by Ten <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That would be a loss of $28.50, about 35,000+ times..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gosh, I wonder where I decided you were an idiot for saying the state would lose the sales of 35,000 Elk Tags.
It is funny how you keep trying to defend the aTVs, and you keep denying the damage to the land, the stress on the animals, and the conflict they cause with real hunters. Why on earth would you want to keep making your ridiculous posts? All you are managing to do is to convince more and more people that ATVs need to be banned. You are the leading ambassador for getting them banned. Look at the "Fence Sitters" who are starting to chime in on the ATV topics, saying they are fed up.
If you really cared about riding your ATV for hunting, you would just keep quiet, and hope nobody cares about them, instead of inciting people to take action AGAINST them.
Do you really think they do no damage to the ground? Do you really think they don't stress the animals? Do you really think other hunters want them within 30 miles?
This was a topic you were better off letting die.... Sometimes you should remain quiet, and let us think you are a fool, than post something, and remove all doubt....
Posted by Ten: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I never said they will not buy Elk Tags.... I used that as a "hypothetical" scenerio, as in "what if".... I used 17,500 as a hypothetical number once also remember??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And posted on November 21 at 16:11 by Ten <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That would be a loss of $28.50, about 35,000+ times..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gosh, I wonder where I decided you were an idiot for saying the state would lose the sales of 35,000 Elk Tags.
It is funny how you keep trying to defend the aTVs, and you keep denying the damage to the land, the stress on the animals, and the conflict they cause with real hunters. Why on earth would you want to keep making your ridiculous posts? All you are managing to do is to convince more and more people that ATVs need to be banned. You are the leading ambassador for getting them banned. Look at the "Fence Sitters" who are starting to chime in on the ATV topics, saying they are fed up.
If you really cared about riding your ATV for hunting, you would just keep quiet, and hope nobody cares about them, instead of inciting people to take action AGAINST them.
Do you really think they do no damage to the ground? Do you really think they don't stress the animals? Do you really think other hunters want them within 30 miles?
JoseCuervo
New member
Ten,
Here is more information that points out the lunacy of your "acclimatized" statement. That may be one of the dumbest ones you have made, but, I don't know, there might be dumber ones....
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Researchers in Yellowstone National Park found that skiers and snowshoers spooked elk from a distance of 600 meters, he said. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The rest of the link is
Missoulan article That Points out Ten is a Looney....
Here is more information that points out the lunacy of your "acclimatized" statement. That may be one of the dumbest ones you have made, but, I don't know, there might be dumber ones....
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Researchers in Yellowstone National Park found that skiers and snowshoers spooked elk from a distance of 600 meters, he said. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The rest of the link is
Missoulan article That Points out Ten is a Looney....
Ten Bears
New member
If you can't even comprehend the concept of a hypothetical situation, how do you expect to me to help you understand that elk (and other game animals) have the ability to acclimate?
What was the definition of "spooked" that they used? Was it that the elk picked up their heads and ran hellbent for the 700 meter mark?
Or was it that the elk looked at the oncoming "intruders"
and took a more defensive/ guarded posture (remember this is wolf country now)?
Or even, possibly the elk looked in the direction of the observers, and grazed away in the other direction.
The problem with any of these studys is it seems they know what answers they are looking for before they go into the field, and therefore it seem that even the slightest behavioral act may be read as just that needed answer. Something keeps coming back to me about Lynx hair or something.......
BTW, IT, read some of your articles/links. I think in some cases your looking at apples and calling them oranges. The studys may be relevant to the study area, but that does not make them revelevant across the board. Sometimes if you look hard enough, you'll see the thing your looking for, even if it's not there. I know of an area that has up to 12+ miles of road in a square mile, and elk sign/trails that interesect those roads, but that doesn't make it elk habitat, it just shows that they go there. Elk have the ability to acclimate to different pressures, and habitat changes. These aint beef we're talkin about here.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-05-2003 11:33: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
What was the definition of "spooked" that they used? Was it that the elk picked up their heads and ran hellbent for the 700 meter mark?
The problem with any of these studys is it seems they know what answers they are looking for before they go into the field, and therefore it seem that even the slightest behavioral act may be read as just that needed answer. Something keeps coming back to me about Lynx hair or something.......
BTW, IT, read some of your articles/links. I think in some cases your looking at apples and calling them oranges. The studys may be relevant to the study area, but that does not make them revelevant across the board. Sometimes if you look hard enough, you'll see the thing your looking for, even if it's not there. I know of an area that has up to 12+ miles of road in a square mile, and elk sign/trails that interesect those roads, but that doesn't make it elk habitat, it just shows that they go there. Elk have the ability to acclimate to different pressures, and habitat changes. These aint beef we're talkin about here.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-05-2003 11:33: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ten, your lack of common sense is only surpassed by your lack of knowledge about elk.
It would be nice if you became "acclimatized" to using your brain...
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-05-2003 14:04: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
It would be nice if you became "acclimatized" to using your brain...
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-05-2003 14:04: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
Ten Bears
New member
BUZZ, it was good of you to stop by, but I think you left your educated opinion at the door......
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ten beers, I'm still waiting for your links to show us how elk become "acclimatized" to ATV's. Please include B&C score sheets of all these whopper bulls that live in the middle of the ATV trails.
Ten Bears
New member
BUZZ, when did B&C scorers come into this???? One could argue that (without enormous expense,and creating 2 gubermint carrer study positions) elk become acclimated to the presence of ATV's and roads is shown in the shear number of elk harvested by hunters that hunt near or from roads. I would speculate that the majority of these elk are younger animals, but over time these acclimated populations haven't toppled or parished, but they persist, and evidently in sufficient #'s to maintain a healthy breeding/huntable population.
I would hazard a guess that, while most all hunters would welcome the opportunity to kill a B&C trophy animal, most are not that ambitious, and are quite happy killing lesser animals. Are you proposing that hunting should be reduced to a trophy sport???? That makes as much sense as EG calling for the abolishment of ATV access because some ATV riders are breaking the laws, but not calling for the abolishment of hunting because some "hunters" are also breaking some laws.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-05-2003 14:59: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
I would hazard a guess that, while most all hunters would welcome the opportunity to kill a B&C trophy animal, most are not that ambitious, and are quite happy killing lesser animals. Are you proposing that hunting should be reduced to a trophy sport???? That makes as much sense as EG calling for the abolishment of ATV access because some ATV riders are breaking the laws, but not calling for the abolishment of hunting because some "hunters" are also breaking some laws.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-05-2003 14:59: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ten beers, once again you fail to grasp even the simplist of concepts, I've come to expect that from you. I never said that hunting should be a trophy sport...
In any animal population, there should be a distribution of old and young animals, including some that just die of old age, thats a healthy population. In areas where access is easy, its a given that animals are fewer in number and also younger on average. They never get close to their potential.
Its ridiculous to make claims that elk become "acclimitazed" to atv's...wheres the proof????
How about a single article?
We've seen mountains of info from those who know what they're talking about...come on pony up some proof.
In any animal population, there should be a distribution of old and young animals, including some that just die of old age, thats a healthy population. In areas where access is easy, its a given that animals are fewer in number and also younger on average. They never get close to their potential.
Its ridiculous to make claims that elk become "acclimitazed" to atv's...wheres the proof????
How about a single article?
We've seen mountains of info from those who know what they're talking about...come on pony up some proof.
JoseCuervo
New member
Stupid statements by Ten in just this one thread....
It is pretty entertaining to read thru his posts, and you realize the lunacy that continues to live in Northern Idaho. No wonder Chenoweth got elected, and now Otter is the Represenative....
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I know several ATV riders that will not be buying deer and/or elk tags next year to protest some of the f&g's newest ATV rules
That would be a loss of $28.50, about 35,000+ times
They are now left with a choice, and many are talking about trimming their license and tag expenses.
I, myself will be buying fewer tags next year. I wont quit hunting over the issue, but I will contribute less money.
How much of the $60 million/year are you willing to contribute BUZZ?
That would be 17,500+ elk tags @ 28.50 each (let alone the potential for losing 35,000+
How many nonresident hunters come to Idaho to hunt, and bring their ATV???? Do you think that Idaho can afford to lose very much of their business as well????
Nobody said they weren't going to hunt.... They just said they would forgoe a level of opportunity
Hunters are riding on the backs of the taxpaying public
Most ATV riders I know ride for fun, and kill animals by opportunity. Few of the are serious hunters anymore,
Do you now propose that passenger vehicles be allowed to go everywhere they want?????
BTW, horses and mules are more errovisely destructive to packed trail surfaces then ATV's.
Width disturbance is also subject, if you consider depth of erosion on pack trails.
BTW the forest circus hires crew to repair these trails every year also.
I never said they will not buy Elk Tags....
BTW, take some pictures, it'll do you good, maybe you'll find that there could be more land unspoiled by ATV's then there is spoiled.
Do you really believe that deer and elk run hellbent for some other place at the sound or smell of an ATV???
OAK, are you saying that the animals don't become acclimatized to these activities?
BUZZ, please show me were as the # of ATV's increases, the decrease in game populations.
I would say that sources such as BUGLE, while professional, may be biased in print.
I only go as far as I need to to get ahead of the crowd. Some days I only go a couple of miles from the house because the crowd is running so far past the local animals.
how do you expect to me to help you understand that elk (and other game animals) have the ability to acclimate?
What was the definition of "spooked" that they used?
The problem with any of these studys is it seems they know what answers they are looking for before they go into the field, and therefore it seem that even the slightest behavioral act may be read as just that needed answer.
The studys may be relevant to the study area, but that does not make them revelevant across the board.
Sometimes if you look hard enough, you'll see the thing your looking for, even if it's not there.
I know of an area that has up to 12+ miles of road in a square mile, and elk sign/trails that interesect those roads, but that doesn't make it elk habitat, it just shows that they go there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I know several ATV riders that will not be buying deer and/or elk tags next year to protest some of the f&g's newest ATV rules
That would be a loss of $28.50, about 35,000+ times
They are now left with a choice, and many are talking about trimming their license and tag expenses.
I, myself will be buying fewer tags next year. I wont quit hunting over the issue, but I will contribute less money.
How much of the $60 million/year are you willing to contribute BUZZ?
That would be 17,500+ elk tags @ 28.50 each (let alone the potential for losing 35,000+
How many nonresident hunters come to Idaho to hunt, and bring their ATV???? Do you think that Idaho can afford to lose very much of their business as well????
Nobody said they weren't going to hunt.... They just said they would forgoe a level of opportunity
Hunters are riding on the backs of the taxpaying public
Most ATV riders I know ride for fun, and kill animals by opportunity. Few of the are serious hunters anymore,
Do you now propose that passenger vehicles be allowed to go everywhere they want?????
BTW, horses and mules are more errovisely destructive to packed trail surfaces then ATV's.
Width disturbance is also subject, if you consider depth of erosion on pack trails.
BTW the forest circus hires crew to repair these trails every year also.
I never said they will not buy Elk Tags....
BTW, take some pictures, it'll do you good, maybe you'll find that there could be more land unspoiled by ATV's then there is spoiled.
Do you really believe that deer and elk run hellbent for some other place at the sound or smell of an ATV???
OAK, are you saying that the animals don't become acclimatized to these activities?
BUZZ, please show me were as the # of ATV's increases, the decrease in game populations.
I would say that sources such as BUGLE, while professional, may be biased in print.
I only go as far as I need to to get ahead of the crowd. Some days I only go a couple of miles from the house because the crowd is running so far past the local animals.
how do you expect to me to help you understand that elk (and other game animals) have the ability to acclimate?
What was the definition of "spooked" that they used?
The problem with any of these studys is it seems they know what answers they are looking for before they go into the field, and therefore it seem that even the slightest behavioral act may be read as just that needed answer.
The studys may be relevant to the study area, but that does not make them revelevant across the board.
Sometimes if you look hard enough, you'll see the thing your looking for, even if it's not there.
I know of an area that has up to 12+ miles of road in a square mile, and elk sign/trails that interesect those roads, but that doesn't make it elk habitat, it just shows that they go there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ten Bears
New member
What's the matter EG, can't come up with anything intellegent to say? Got a bent ego???? Nice job of cutting some of those statements short of context (how IT'ish of you), but then again I've come to expect that sort of thing from you.
Do you intend to contest any of the questions with sources, or do you just want to sling mud?
BUZZ, here are some references to elk having the ability to acclimate to human activity.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22elk%2Bacclimate&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-top
BTW, I was out scouting for bobcat sign this weekend and found elk bedding right in the road. Guess nobody told them they needed to be miles away from it, or running hellbent away at the sound of an ATV.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-08-2003 12:02: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
Do you intend to contest any of the questions with sources, or do you just want to sling mud?
BUZZ, here are some references to elk having the ability to acclimate to human activity.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22elk%2Bacclimate&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-top
BTW, I was out scouting for bobcat sign this weekend and found elk bedding right in the road. Guess nobody told them they needed to be miles away from it, or running hellbent away at the sound of an ATV.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-08-2003 12:02: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>
Ten Bears
New member
I'm sure if elk and other wildlife weren't able to become acclimated to roads and human activity "jellystone" wouldn't be publishing these kind of brochures.
http://www.nps.gov/yell/publications/pdfs/YellToday/2001/summer/page2.pdf
http://www.nps.gov/yell/publications/pdfs/YellToday/2001/summer/page2.pdf
Ithaca 37
New member
Ten, Every time I start to think you can't post anything dumber, you prove me wrong? Now you're trying to convince us roads & elk in YP are anything like the real world?
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