Blue Lives Matter

[406dn]

If things weren't bad,,, the reactions to the recent police involved shootings would not be as strong as they have been. Just as in physics, every action has an equal reaction. The anguish on a number well known black men's faces in the recent days should provide sufficient evidence that things are not well, racially speaking.

Those men have not been famous their entire lives. Each of them has their own history. They all have brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts etc that have had experiences with law enforcement.

Robert Horry spoke emotionally about his fear concerning his sons and law enforcement. I believe he was speaking from the heart.

If you spend much time on this board, there will be discussions of the risks involved with hunting in areas with grizzly bears. Some just will not hunt in those areas. Others after a close call, chose not to do it again. I suspect many black men have the same fear of the police that many hunters have with grizzly bears. The difference is they can't arrange their life to avoid the presence of the police. Most everyone gets a little ill at ease when a policeman pulls his car in back of you and follows you for a time. I can understand that the lump in their throat is bigger than the one I get.

 

[FI460]

Really odd how experiences differ. I was of the Civil Rights generation and I don't actually know anyone who has said or thought that all people are not equal in the last 40 years. I know there are a few desperate white supremacists out there, and likely a way larger number of blacks who are outwardly racist to whites and Hispanics, but I like to think those are small in number, albeit very vocal right now.

All on both sides of the aisle should listen to Tim Scott's speech at the RNC where he talked about the "evolution of the Southern heart" and "cotton to Congress in one generation". Oh, and btw, my father (not my grandfather, like Tim Scott's), quit school after the 4th grade after his father was killed in the logging woods to help support the family. Worked with a bunch of Irish guys building railroads when he was 11 years old.

Things are simply not as bad as they appear right now. As has been pointed out factually over and over, the statistics simply do not support systemic police mistreatment of blacks when you consider their proportion of the crimes committed.

What we are looking at IMHO, is the promotion of Marxism (just like it says in the BLM manifesto) and the rare police shooting is merely the excuse.

You're lucky then. I've absolutely been exposed to racists just in the last 5 years. They were boomers, gen x-ers, and millenials. My experience has been that racism is prevalent in both urban and rural areas. They may not wear white hoods, but they absolutely think they're better than people with black or brown skin.

The Marxism thing is just a cop out to maintain the status quo. There is a strong sentiment to produce some change in America, and it's not widespread support for communism.

 

[longbow51]

You're lucky then. I've absolutely been exposed to racists just in the last 5 years. They were boomers, gen x-ers, and millenials. My experience has been that racism is prevalent in both urban and rural areas. They may not wear white hoods, but they absolutely think they're better than people with black or brown skin.

The Marxism thing is just a cop out to maintain the status quo. There is a strong sentiment to produce some change in America, and it's not widespread support for communism.

Marxism is a tenet of BLM, and if you don't think there is support for same, listen to AOC and the squad for a while.

 

[406dn]

Marxism is a tenet of BLM, and if you don't think there is support for same, listen to AOC and the squad for a while.

AOC does not speak for the entirety of the Democratic party. If she did,, Bernie would have won the nomination in a cake walk. I doubt the entirety of the political right wants to be tied to Steven King.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Marxism is a tenet of BLM, and if you don't think there is support for same, listen to AOC and the squad for a while.

The same was said about MLK, yet somehow we won the cold war fairly handily.

Let’s not confuse the sincere desire for a more just and equitable society held by millions of “normal mainstreet” Americans (including many traditional conservatives) with the words of a few hundred political extremists that get all the press and a few thousand anarchist trash taking advantage of the situation.

 

[406dn]

Speaking of recent witnessing of racism. One of my,,,no my biggest passion is pointing dogs and field trialling them from horseback. That sport's center of gravity is in the south. I have made friends with several who come from that region.

A year or so after the last presidential election, more than one of them openly referred to African Americans as ni%%ers. It set me back, as previously I had never heard them speak that candidly about race. I suspect they did not think I would take offense,,, I really did not know how to respond initially. One,with who I have long been friends, had a long discussion concerning race. We did not change each other's mind,,, I suspect we both view each other a little differently than before.

 

[longbow51]

The same was said about MLK, yet somehow we won the cold war fairly handily.

Let’s not confuse the sincere desire for a more just and equitable society held by millions of “normal mainstreet” Americans (including many traditional conservatives) with the words of a few hundred political extremists that get all the press and a few thousand anarchist trash taking advantage of the situation.

I thought the "anarchist trash" as you describe them was what we were talking about. The thread started, as I recall, about Blue Lives Matter. "Normal mainstreet Americans" aren't killing and injuring cops and shooting 5 year old white kids riding bikes, nor attacking Senators leaving the White House. longbow out.

 

[LWC55]

Marxism is a tenet of BLM, and if you don't think there is support for same, listen to AOC and the squad for a while.

Not pointing that at anyone. But people really should look at the goals and backgrounds before blindly supporting any group with a catchy (sounds well meaning) name. Or you could end up unknowingly supporting anti-American ideals.

Useful idiot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[VikingsGuy]

I thought the "anarchist trash" as you describe them was what we were talking about. The thread started, as I recall, about Blue Lives Matter. "Normal mainstreet Americans" aren't killing and injuring cops and shooting 5 year old white kids riding bikes, nor attacking Senators leaving the White House. longbow out.

You were talking about the political philosophy of BLM - please send me the links to support your statement that acknowledged BLM leaders accountable for their political philosophy are , “killing and injuring cops and shooting 5 year old white kids riding bikes“. BLM and the largely white anarchist groups are different groups with different members, different goals, different politics and causing different problems.

 

[406dn]

Not pointing that at anyone. But people really should look at the goals and backgrounds before blindly supporting any group with a catchy (sounds well meaning) name. Or you could end up unknowingly supporting anti-American ideals.

Useful idiot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One can support a cause without supporting every aspect of the cause or aspects assigned to it by its detractors. Marxism has never been deader than it is presently. I'm old enough to remember Gus Hall being on the ballot for president.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Not pointing that at anyone. But people really should look at the goals and backgrounds before blindly supporting any group with a catchy (sounds well meaning) name. Or you could end up unknowingly supporting anti-American ideals.

Useful idiot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here are the stated values of BLM, could you please tell me which ones are anti-American ideals (other than twice using the “comrade” trigger word) that I am being duped into believing?


“[W]e are continuing the work of our ancestors and fighting for our collective freedom because it is our duty.

Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades, allies, and family a culture where each person feels seen, heard, and supported.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people.

We intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

We see ourselves as part of the global Black family, and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black people who exist in different parts of the world.

We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

We practice empathy. We engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.”

 

[lastlight]

Marxism has never been deader than it is presently.

Same with White supremacy and real racism from my experience. Sure there are a few stragglers but that will never go away as long as we are human beings without implanted micro chips.

The recent shooting has me confused, not in the same league as George Floyd and BLM and the entire NBA movement loses people like me when they defend the Blake situation. I’m all for the George Floyd protest.

 

[LWC55]

Here are the stated values of BLM, could you please tell me which ones are anti-American ideals (other than twice using the “comrade” trigger word) that I am being duped into believing?


“[W]e are continuing the work of our ancestors and fighting for our collective freedom because it is our duty.

Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades, allies, and family a culture where each person feels seen, heard, and supported.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people.

We intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

We see ourselves as part of the global Black family, and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black people who exist in different parts of the world.

We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

We practice empathy. We engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.”

Sometimes you have to look a little deeper than their publicly stated goals. But the founders don't really try and hide their Marxist and violent values.

BLM in its Own Words
"We actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia [Garza] in particular, we're trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super versed on ideological theories." — BLM co-founder Patrisse Cullors, July 22, 2015.

"If this country doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it. All right? And I could be speaking figuratively. I could be speaking literally. It's a matter of interpretation.... I just want black liberation and black sovereignty, by any means necessary." — BLM activist Hank Newsome, June 25, 2020.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Sometimes you have to look a little deeper than their publicly stated goals. But the founders don't really try and hide their Marxist and violent values.

BLM in its Own Words
"We actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia [Garza] in particular, we're trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super versed on ideological theories." — BLM co-founder Patrisse Cullors, July 22, 2015.

"If this country doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it. All right? And I could be speaking figuratively. I could be speaking literally. It's a matter of interpretation.... I just want black liberation and black sovereignty, by any means necessary." — BLM activist Hank Newsome, June 25, 2020.

Like I said a few posts ago - the words of a few extremists do not define the wishes of millions of mainstream Americans who are tired of the lack of progress towards equity. Maybe if the recalcitrant among us would help foster improvement in some of the clearly unacceptable situations that exist in our country today, the Cullors and Newsomes of the world would not have the fertile soil to plant their particular BS.

 

[Europe]

Several have asked my opinion and the one thing I do know, is from having lived thru the riots of the 50's and 60's ( Montgomery, Watts, Dr King, Rodney King ) I do not believe that "riots" are the answer. If anything they add to the problem of getting the majority to understand and respect the minority. Watts was burned to the ground in the 60's and it is happening again in Wis. 60 years later, so in my mind it does not look like riots is or was the answer.

However : Please read post number 561 above. I agree with each point made in that post and what those folks have felt and are feeling didn't just happen when the recent tragic shootings occurred, it is an accumulation of fear, desperation, anger over years--generations. It is real

I also read on this thread after Randy posted, what would happen if Randy included a black man or law enforcement officer on one of his hunts. In my opinion, nothing would change. Those who like and follow Randy would feel that he had done his part by reaching our and would praise him. Others would accuse him of politicizing his hunts or of 'tokenism". Dont get me wrong it would be a nice thing for Randy to do, but I am sharing how I think others would react.

But the question is: What happens after that ? What happens after the riots ? what happened after the Dr King riots? How do we reduce racism ? You will notice I said reduce, because in my opinion it will never be erased, at least not in my lifetime.

There will always be those who "hate", for a variety of reasons and hate is not just a black/white issue. Indians in America, Canada, Australia, Brazil are all marginalized and in some cases "hated". How would you like living in Israel and have bombs lobbed at you almost daily ? Even balloons and soft balls are designed to explode and injure or kill Jewish children. America doesn't have a monopoly on hate

Long post to say I dont have the answer. From a personal point of view, I try to be a good Christian to everyone, regardless of race, gender or religion, as that is how I was raised.

My thoughts about what to do in America to help reduce racism in the future are based more toward education, not politics or more laws. Education of minority children to help them escape the poor circumstances they are in ( if in any ) as well as to continue to educate white children to help them understand the problems some minority families are struggling with AND hopefully by educating both children of color and white children now, these children will be color blind in the future and they all will be contributing to society in a positive manner--together.

Hope springs eternal, but this is what I hope and pray for. Better education of minority children which will allow them to get away from crime and get good jobs which will also allow them to help their children in the future, while continuing to educate our white children about the struggles of minority families.

I would also like to see better training/monitoring/stress relief programs in the law enforcement ranks. Maybe even instead of defunding the police, give them time off with pay to recharge, because they have a very stressful job. Minority people worry about being shot when stopped, "sometimes". Police officers worry about it EVERY time they stop someone or are called to a crime scene and/or disturbance. Maybe more time off , with pay. More time with a doctor being evaluated might help as well, but more time fishing or whatever their hobby is, could also help them handle the stress of being an officer a bit better when on duty. I could not and would not want to be in law enforcement as many times they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.
And when do you react when someone your trying to arrest or calm down has a weapon, after your shot, after your partner is shot, after an innocent bystander is shot and these are split second decisions. I do not want that responsibility but am I very grateful that we have men and women who are willing to risk there lives daily for us---but the stress of the job can be a lot and I feel more time to unwind might help, but thats just my opinion

Bottom line in my mind. No quick fix, but looking into the future: Better education for the minority children ( and jobs for their parents ) and more stress management tools available for our law enforcement

 

[LWC55]

Like I said a few posts ago - the words of a few extremists do not define the wishes of millions of mainstream Americans who are tired of the lack of progress towards equity. Maybe if the recalcitrant among us would help foster improvement in some of this clearly unacceptable situations that exist in our country today, the Cullors and Newsomes of the world would not have the fertile soil to plant their particular BS.

I don't disagree with your sentiment and think that most Americans want to see the country improve and see overall more equality. But for many middle of the road and conservative folks, supporting a group founded by and built on Marxist values is a nonstarter. Seems if the movement really wanted more support they would begin with an organization with more American values and not rooted in communism. That would greatly help the cause.

 

[Tiredofthebickering]

Here are the stated values of BLM, could you please tell me which ones are anti-American ideals (other than twice using the “comrade” trigger word) that I am being duped into believing?


“[W]e are continuing the work of our ancestors and fighting for our collective freedom because it is our duty.

Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades, allies, and family a culture where each person feels seen, heard, and supported.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people.

We intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

We see ourselves as part of the global Black family, and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black people who exist in different parts of the world.

We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

We practice empathy. We engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.”

Total sidebar unrelated to the discussion that you're having. But I've been getting annoyed with everyone wanted to feel "supported". Some mugs make terrible life decisions. Correction and admonishment are oftentimes at the root of personal growth. Everyone should be seen and heard, but there are all sorts of decisions/choices that should not be supported.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I don't disagree with your sentiment and think that most American's want to see the country improve and see overall more equality. But for many middle of the road and conservative folks, supporting a group founded by and built on Marxist values is a nonstarter. Seems if the movement really wanted more support they would begin with an organization with more American values and not rooted in communism. That would greatly help the cause.

First, one doesn’t have to support a particular group to acknowledge the problem a group raises - I for one have no affinity for BLM, but do acknowledge some of the pervasive problems that have brought BLM to the forefront.

Second, there have been peaceful and “American values” driven attempts to move the needle on these topics for decades and have largely been ignored. So, while I don‘t like riots, and think they end up counterproductive for all involved, maybe we white males should stop telling blacks, Hispanics, gays, women, etc, etc how to properly draw their concerns to our attention and actually get off our a**es and start making changes on our own. The middle age, middle class, white male has been almost non-existant from equality and justice discussions for the last 30 years (I am sure it is longer than that, but will restrict my comment to my adult experience) - maybe we should stop telling others where to dig and just pick up a damn shovel. If this was the norm we wouldn’t have a BLM to worry about.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Total sidebar unrelated to the discussion that you're having. But I've been getting annoyed with everyone wanted to feel "supported". Some mugs make terrible life decisions. Correction and admonishment are oftentimes at the root of personal growth. Everyone should be seen and heard, but there are all sorts of decisions/choices that should not be supported.

I don‘t think what you are concerned about is what they are talking about. Spend some time listening to black friends and their experiences and you will understand this is not directed at “snow flakes” and “participation trophies”.

 

[Tiredofthebickering]

I don‘t think what you are concerned about is what they are talking about. Spend some time listening to black friends and their experiences and you will understand this is not directed at “snow flakes” and “participation trophies”.

I could have phrased better, but I'd like to clarify that wasn't actually pointed at you or even the BLM (blue or black) discussion. Just a general thought I've had recently.