Anyone care to try and talk some sense into this guy?

[LuketheDog]

I finally took the time to read the article and I’m wondering the same thing...

"As a hunter, I value my time outdoors with friends, getting up before dawn, waiting for first light, trying to spot big game moving in the shadows and waiting for sunrise and a positive identification of the right species and the right sex. I prefer to hunt cow elk because of their flavorful meat. I am not a trophy hunter."

I doubt the author is much of a hunter just based on his prose, likely more a guy who has gone hunting occasionally in his life. Based on his past columns, he seems more like a Four Corners history buff, has written several wolf articles over the past few years but none about hunting...

 

[Sytes]

51:10

 

[Deleted member 28227]

"As a hunter, I value my time outdoors with friends, getting up before dawn, waiting for first light, trying to spot big game moving in the shadows and waiting for sunrise and a positive identification of the right species and the right sex. I prefer to hunt cow elk because of their flavorful meat. I am not a trophy hunter."

I doubt the author is much of a hunter just based on his prose, likely more a guy who has gone hunting occasionally in his life. Based on his past columns, he seems more like a Four Corners history buff, has written several wolf articles over the past few years but none about hunting...

trophy hunting.... cow elk taste better... overly complicated and clumsy description of glassing

Bet he and Tutchton, get on like a house on fire during their decennial armed hiking trip.

​

 

[beginnerhunter]

I sure hope/pray the wolves have minimal impact, because the lost revenue and incentive for habitat protection from decreased license sales could, long term, mean you have cervids and wolves mostly in RMNP and not much elsewhere. Folks may not be able to hear the wolves from their subdivision built on a migration corridor.

Also hope they dont swamp the Mexican wolf out of existence.

 

[Point Creep]

They sure haven’t done a very good job of decimating Wyoming’s elk herds.

Just curious, but do you notice in Wyoming areas with heavy wolf numbers - that elk are not in the same places they used to be, even though the unit wide numbers are as high or higher...

 

[Point Creep]

An elk hunter welcomes wolves

I guess by definition, if he buys an elk license - he's an elk hunter.

You can't "talk some sense" into a guy like that, that's for sure.

 

[MTLabrador]

Just curious, but do you notice in Wyoming areas with heavy wolf numbers - that elk are not in the same places they used to be, even though the unit wide numbers are as high or higher...

In the country I used to hunt in Montana, this was absolutely true. The wolf areas I’m most familiar with in Wyoming had wolves before I ever explored them.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Factually unsubstantiated.

I assume that you’re referring to the points made in the article? Because you’re going to have a hard time making the case that I need to substantiate with facts my personal entirely subjective experience of enjoying hunting animals that are chased by non-human predators more than hunting animals that aren’t.

I like the premise of the article, although I don’t understand the supposed data he cites. I’m suspicious of the conjectures he makes, and I appreciate how you and others have shown how his arguments don’t hold water.

Are you arguing that elk management in MT, shoulder seasons, 12 weeks of hunting season, etc are the same as Colorado's management goals and strategies and therefore you are able to definitively say the wolves are the variable leading to these differences?

Can you say that for even the same DSUs/GMUs in the same state?

No and no. I’m talking about my own personal enjoyment of hunting in wolf areas vs non-wolf areas. You must be thinking I’m trying to make some other kind of point.

Penn doesn't hunt like Minnesota for whitetail... QDMA, private v. public land ownership... etc

None of the whitetail areas I’ve hunted are managed for QDMA. Most are a mix of public and private. One major difference between areas is the presence of non-human deer predators. The deer behave much differently, utilize the landscape differently, and exist in different densities primarily due to the absence or presence of predators.

habitat degradation ... yeah I have the Youtube, that video is a f-ing joke in the context of this conversation.

No clue what video you’re referring to. I’ve seen many dozens of ecosystems degraded by dozens of different species in many different states, provinces, and countries due to absence of natural predators resulting in higher prey population density than the landscape can support. Lakes, streams, ponds, timber, prairies, semi-desert, etc. Maybe you could audit a field environmental biology course or similar? You’d see for yourself.

CWD and wolves, red herring, the implication they are related is completely spurious.

I never said CWD. Diseases in general are more prevalent and impactful when prey populations are kept unnaturally high due to humans having removed other predators from ecosystems.

At the end of the day this is not a "science" conversation, it's a do you like the aesthetic, the rest is horsepucky and I'm over it.

I want grizzlies in CO, why because I like grizzlies and want to see them. There is no scientific, ecological, or conservation driven reason. They are awesome, I like seeing them.

People want to see wolves or hear them when they go into the flattops, cool.

True that most people just want to see the predators on the landscape. I do. Some people put forth “science arguments” as a red herring to conceal their hidden intention of just wanting the predators to be there.

The problem with your overall argument is you do your best to almost totally dismantle the science reasons to reintroduce predators, but you’re up against the entire body of knowledge of evolutionary biology, and ecology. When you have these conversations in an echo chamber of persons who are overwhelmingly anti-wolf, it’s easy to get a lot of “likes” to your comments, but don’t let that fool you into thinking you’re correct.

There are aesthetic AND scientific reasons to reintroduce predators. When humans take the place of apex predators, we do asymmetrically due to modern social constraints. We don’t hunt year-round, target diseased, wounded, young, and otherwise most vulnerable individuals of a population, and like you mentioned, are restricted by invisible property boundaries.

Stop pissing down my neck.

 

[huntnpack]

IA used to be very thin on small predators such as owls, hawks, foxes, coyotes, eagles, bobcats, etc, and the small game species were in over-abundance. Now that they’re all back in force the prey animals are in better balance.

I'd argue habitat change over time has been by far the biggest influence with respect to changes in both prey & predator populations/species. Read Dinsmore's "A country so full of game" if you haven't. Great read.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I assume that you’re referring to the points made in the article? Because you’re going to have a hard time making the case that I need to substantiate with facts my personal entirely subjective experience of enjoying hunting animals that are chased by non-human predators more than hunting animals that aren’t.

I like the premise of the article, although I don’t understand the supposed data he cites. I’m suspicious of the conjectures he makes, and I appreciate how you and others have shown how his arguments don’t hold water.

You're stepping into the middle of a year long political campaign on the issue, and definitely received some unwarranted venom.

A number of folks have written articles, tossed in some fluff about hunting birds or maybe a cow elk, and then suddenly act like they speak for an entire community.

I hunt... more than some less than others, I took a ton of biology, volunteered for a natural science school leading kids on backpacking trips and teaching them ecology. I don't speak for hunters I don't speak for environmentalist and my experiences color my view. Hell I'm not sure @Sytes and have ever agreed about wolves on any thread

The video is the Yellowstone one, everyone wants to tell you about the streams and the willows and the beavers. I'm not even going to touch it, I'm just saying whatever the facts are Colorado doesn't have Yellowstone.

CWD, that's the disease that is being reference in the political campaigns directly.

Certainly predation is an important part of ecosystems. Please inform me where wolves should be located in the state of Colorado such that the overabundance of elk that is having a detrimental impact can be alleviated. Note CPW said there is no such place, and the NPS has said that wolf introduction in both GSNP and RMSP is not recommended. So both federal and state biologists disagree that there is a specific need for wolves in CO.

Wolves are in CO, they entered on their own. The will continue to expand their range. I hope I see one or hear one.

I don't want a ballot initiative overriding the recommendations of biologists.

Grizzlies probably won't ever expand into CO natural, I would be in favor of re-introducing that predator.

For the record, I've hunted some in Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado, Oklahoma, etc.

Colorado elk and deer are as cagey as any critter I've run into in AK or the other states. If anything more cagey, you don't run into many elk or deer in CO that haven't watched a buddy get killed by a hunter.
CO also has so many bears, that we allow people to get 3 tags a year in a lot of units and 2 in the rest, from what I’ve read bears kill a lot of fawns in the spring, and CO also has a lot of lions the CPW season setting meeting this summer was eye opening to just how many. Lions per the numerous articles on the web kill more elk and deer than wolves. So needless to say CO does have a functioning suite of predators.

Maybe Iowa should vote to have wolves

You'd think after 8000 posts I'd need to invest in a new soap box, but this one is holding together great. Wanna hear about my thoughts on CO bear tags next.

Ps. Sorry for being a dick

 

[El Jason]

I haven’t read the article, but suggest everyone quit hunting any state that has wolves. They decimate everything. Including your truck tires.

 

[Sytes]

Rocky Mountain Wolf Project, supported by the Center For Biological Diversity among Earth Justice, and other extreme environmental turds garnered initiative signatures from naive urban shoppers who believe wolves fart rainbows out their ass.
Direct lies such as wolves will enhance the ecosystem with one primary example shared: Wolves will eliminate Cronic Wasting Disease, a main news topic at the time - pre Covid,

Initiative that counter legitimate biologists (not the CBD dipshits) such as the one hosted on a few occasions by Randy Newberg on his podcasts, AZGFD, Wildlife Biologist, Jim Heffelfinger.

“Our obligation is to make recovery decisions based on the latest research, solid science and management experience to preserve this unique wolf subspecies under the Endangered Species Act.”

AZGFD

www.azgfd.com

“Hybridizing with wolves originally from Canada not only threatens the unique characteristics for which the Mexican wolf remains listed, but would undo decades of success returning iconic Mexican wolves to the Southwest,” Heffelfinger added.

But hey, Denver / Boulder urbanites will sign anything to support those rainbows.

 

[Jeremyc_1999]

Well, goodbye Colorado mule deer hunting as you know it. Everyone talks elk, but I think that the mule deer populations have suffered more

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Well, goodbye Colorado mule deer hunting as you know it. Everyone talks elk, but I think that the mule deer populations have suffered more

Honestly probably improve trophy quality of both. Couple hundred wolves would mean cutting lots of tags in some units. Huge funding loss for CPW. But less hunters on the mountain, better chance for bucks to grow old and more resources for those bucks and bulls.

Now your draw odds are gonna dive.

All depends on numbers, time frame etc.

What really gets me frustrated is thinking about the the $$ that will be going towards litigation to keep the state from managing wolves through hunting that could be going to conservation.

 

[Pucky Freak]

What really gets me frustrated is thinking about the the $$ that will be going towards litigation to keep the state from managing wolves through hunting that could be going to conservation.

Unfortunate reality that despite some value of wolves being in CO, millions get spent by the anti-hunting lobby to keep management out of the hands of biologists, game agencies, hunters, and landowners in the affected areas, which is really where it belongs. I completely understand the merit of being against wolves in CO for no other reason than the misappropriation of the ESA, dubious biology-by-ballot initiative, and other straw man obstacles.

In an ideal world IMO wolves could recolonize CO on their own, and the state could manage them similar to how WY does. That’s pretty much a pipe dream considering how liberal CO is - the ranchers suffer, hunters get frustrated, and all taxpayers end up footing the bill for the government to pay out damages.

Taking a step back though I think it’s wise as hunters to position ourselves on the right side of (future) history by planning to accept large predator reintroduction as the new norm over the next 20 or so years. I can see fighting select and strategic battles, on the side of good science and management, but a lot more wolves in CO seems pretty inevitable at this point.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think we all need to stop for a moment and recognize that @ElkFever2 dropped the dopest bomb on a thread to date & we all should bow down to his meme game.

Towlie FTW.

Also, @wllm1313 should eat a gummie.

Vote no on this initiative, and then plan for the fallout if it passes. Wolves aren't the biggest issue you will face in CO when it comes to game management, but it is the largest divisive issue you will have. Too much money on both sides to not fan the flames.

 

[HSi-ESi]

Vote no on this initiative, and then plan for the fallout if it passes. Wolves aren't the biggest issue you will face in CO when it comes to game management, but it is the largest divisive issue you will have. Too much money on both sides to not fan the flames.

Agreed. I find it odd that instead of wanting to use the ESA for it's intended purposes (and really lock down management) that groups like the CBD push for a hybrid model that includes more stakeholders that will inevitably have more management rules in place to handle problems as they arise. A gradual approach is usually best from societal and environmental perspectives.

I see it as economic reasons for these groups to push so hard.

 

[Slate]

I don’t have a problem with wolves as long as we can hunt them. They can’t go unchecked

 

[Single Malt]

Here in Colorado, ballot measures (and laws and policies) are no longer voted upon or decided using data, reason, and logic. EVEYTHING now is emotional and feelgood. Wolves are large fluffy dogs and we can't have too many of those, can we? Perhaps it's believed and expected that wolves will be responsible for reducing hunting through fewer elk being available and fewer tags being issued as a result. Perhaps they want to restrict desirable elk hunting GMUs so that the wolves will have a chance to "take hold." All in all, we are stuck with this measure and I'm just waiting for them to restrict access.

 

[LuketheDog]

Here in Colorado, ballot measures (and laws and policies) are no longer voted upon or decided using data, reason, and logic.

It's like being a Red Sox fan...