Anybody Buying Yet? Where’s the Bottom?

[Deleted member 28227]

What surprises me is is why those people would gripe that companies make a higher profit with tax cuts that results in shareholders benefitting via stock prices and dividends. Makes one skeptical

55% of non-retirees have a 401k or 403b

25% have nothing

Median retirement savings of American households ~$65k

Mean retirement account value of folks 55-65, so not averaging in the millions without any retirement, is < $140,000.

So a lot of folks are left out and or don’t benefit much from the stock market.

 

[BuzzH]

What surprises me is is why those people would gripe that companies make a higher profit with tax cuts that results in shareholders benefitting via stock prices and dividends. Makes one skeptical

Because as part of a functioning society when you put corporate profit, CEO salary, and stock prices ahead of the citizens it degrades that society.

It's this thing called greed.

I'd rather hd pay schmalts a bit more, keep his job in the U.S., maybe even give you a pension AND a 401, and better health coverage. Maybe even have them help to pay down the deficit instead of paying another 2% back to shareholders or a dividend check.

Or, I could be like you and say f-it, let hd move schmalts to oh, say a real labor friendly, progressive state, like Louisiana for instance, where we can slash his wages, benefits, and move him into a company house on stilts out the bayou somewhere. Maybe even farm his job out to some dude living in a grass hut somewhere in Asia. All I care about is increasing my profits.

Never mind we could still be plenty profitable investing in America, our employees, and our societal needs as well as our shareholders, board, and CEO too. Not sorry, we only care about the total profit.

Nobody is claiming that a company shouldn't be allowed to make a profit. But cutthroat policy, off-shoring labor, slashing pensions and benefits is bullshit profit taking. It's not investing in the middle class and the biggest beneficiaries are not guys like you and me thinking we're cutting a fat hog in the ass because we have a couple million splashing around in the big show.

We're chumps that are very fortunate to get a few crumbs, which is still better than most, who have been victims of the policy, laws, and regulations that have concentrated wealth, shrunk the middle class, and destroyed the American dream for a lot of people.

Middle class workers who could have a car, buy a first home, have a kid or two, shit maybe even take a vacation once a year...and allow Mom or Dad to stay home and raise kids.

Corporate greed, shareholders, and dividends have taken priority over all that.

But I'll pull a schmalts, f-it, I'm better off than most, let them other guys find some bootstraps. It's all about me.

 

[ashersdad]

What surprises me is is why those people would gripe that companies make a higher profit with tax cuts that results in shareholders benefitting via stock prices and dividends. Makes one skeptical

I think some people get tired of companies getting huge tax cuts and the rank and file employees are still not making a "living wage." I get where you're coming from. If it benefits someone as a shareholder, you'd think they'd be happy. My wife has taught me over the years that just because it benefits you, doesn't always make it a good thing overall.

 

[BuzzH]

I think some people get tired of companies getting huge tax cuts and the rank and file employees are still not making a "living wage." I get where you're coming from. If it benefits someone as a shareholder, you'd think they'd be happy. My wife has taught me over the years that just because it benefits you, doesn't always make it a good thing overall.

Sounds like your wife does some thinking and has a soul...

 

[TOGIE]

First off, there is not enough tin foil in this country to cover this pumpkin I have above my shoulders. Second, we have the ultimate say over who governs us. We have no say over who gets to have wealth. I'll use my influence at the ballot box. Third, since you have a more "skeptical" view of Governance than I do, do you think that increasing taxes on the wealthy will change their behavior and the behavior of our elected leaders or are the increased taxes just the price they have to pay for having so much influence?

Well firstly I’m not looking to increase taxes on the wealthy, I’m just looking to get them to actually pay some taxes.

Do I think it will change the behavior of the wealthy? No. But I’m not gonna throw up my hands and say “so be it, if the wealthy are gonna skirt the rules then what do I care, can’t do nothin about it anyway”

If nobody cares and if there’s no reason to care we might as well just skip ahead to where only the property owners have rights and commoners work their lands while the landowners hunt “their” wildlife. We have to care about who skirts the rules. This tax thing is just a small component of my overarching principle - that we need checks and balances on everyone in society, especially the elites. Because after our very own government, the biggest threat to democracy is, well, the elites imo.

The checks and balances on society don’t and and shouldn’t stop at just the branches of government.

 

[rwc101]

Crowder seems intransigent, change my mind.

I don't have a dog in this fight. No delusions of grandeur here.

 

[schmalts]

Because as part of a functioning society when you put corporate profit, CEO salary, and stock prices ahead of the citizens it degrades that society.

It's this thing called greed.

I'd rather hd pay schmalts a bit more, keep his job in the U.S., maybe even give you a pension AND a 401, and better health coverage. Maybe even have them help to pay down the deficit instead of paying another 2% back to shareholders or a dividend check.

Or, I could be like you and say f-it, let hd move schmalts to oh, say a real labor friendly, progressive state, like Louisiana for instance, where we can slash his wages, benefits, and move him into a company house on stilts out the bayou somewhere. Maybe even farm his job out to some dude living in a grass hut somewhere in Asia. All I care about is increasing my profits.

Never mind we could still be plenty profitable investing in America, our employees, and our societal needs as well as our shareholders, board, and CEO too. Not sorry, we only care about the total profit.

Nobody is claiming that a company shouldn't be allowed to make a profit. But cutthroat policy, off-shoring labor, slashing pensions and benefits is bullshit profit taking. It's not investing in the middle class and the biggest beneficiaries are not guys like you and me thinking we're cutting a fat hog in the ass because we have a couple million splashing around in the big show.

We're chumps that are very fortunate to get a few crumbs, which is still better than most, who have been victims of the policy, laws, and regulations that have concentrated wealth, shrunk the middle class, and destroyed the American dream for a lot of people.

Middle class workers who could have a car, buy a first home, have a kid or two, shit maybe even take a vacation once a year...and allow Mom or Dad to stay home and raise kids.

Corporate greed, shareholders, and dividends have taken priority over all that.

But I'll pull a schmalts, f-it, I'm better off than most, let them other guys find some bootstraps. It's all about me.

News flash, non government job pensions are a dead horse theses days. Try and find one at a new job. I am all ears with your grand ideas how to change that besides bitching about it. No one in office is going to do shit about it but people can by realizing it and taking responsibility and start putting more in a 401K . In todays day if you are not in a government job and are not putting $ in a 401K shame on you. SS is not going to support you if it is still around when people retire. Everyone looks at things with different windows. How much a month will your pension be Buzz? Mine is not shit, I rely on the stock market and my 401k so yea, it's all about me and all my doing because putting into a 401k is not mandatory yet irresponsible people with no finance skills spend money on new trucks and scream they have nothing to retire on. Same goes for the whole school loan fiasco. I'll be a schmalts and be proud that everything I have was my own doing and investing and am not going to cry for others to bail my sorry ass out if I only put the bare minimum or nothing towards my retirement. But here I am, this middle class guy who still gets my hands dirty, works my ass off, side small business that keeps growing and I am doing fine because I rely on myself to make things happen. I have a feeling it is because of people like you is why I left the union. Just sayin

 

[BuzzH]

News flash, non government job pensions are a dead horse theses days. Try and find one at a new job. I am all ears with your grand ideas how to change that besides bitching about it. No one in office is going to do shit about it but people can by realizing it and taking responsibility and start putting more in a 401K . In todays day if you are not in a government job and are not putting $ in a 401K shame on you. SS is not going to support you if it is still around when people retire. Everyone looks at things with different windows. How much a month will your pension be Buzz? Mine is not shit, I rely on the stock market and my 401k so yea, it's all about me and all my doing because putting into a 401k is not mandatory yet irresponsible people with no finance skills spend money on new trucks and scream they have nothing to retire on. Same goes for the whole school loan fiasco. I'll be a schmalts and be proud that everything I have was my own doing and investing and am not going to cry for others to bail my sorry ass out if I only put the bare minimum or nothing towards my retirement. But here I am, this middle class guy who still gets my hands dirty, works my ass off, side small business that keeps growing and I am doing fine because I rely on myself to make things happen. I have a feeling it is because of people like you is why I left the union. Just sayin

Let's start here Pat, we'll get the rest later.

Please explain how this situation is supposed to "put more in their 401K?" In particular anything close to the $20,500 limit.

I'm all ears.

 

[SAJ-99]

Best thing I ever did. When the company got the tax break under Trump my merit raise was extra 4% than past years so there's that. I have talked to multiple business owners who under Trump and the tax cuts, felt confident enough to expand, hire, and pay better. I will believe the opinion of personal friends that own businesses than a union worker, since I have been in both shoes.

This didn’t sound right given what I remember, so I looked it up. Pretty easy to find on multiple sources. It was used by many to describe why the tax cuts didn’t work as intended. I think @BigHornRam said something about “unintended consequences”. Funny part is I think these were completely intended.

2018: After big tax-rate cut, Harley shut a Kansas City plant—costing 800 local jobs—rewarded shareholders with $700 million in stock buybacks and opened a new facility in Thailand. But the motorcycle maker’s corporate-tax-cut story is not unique.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Well firstly I’m not looking to increase taxes on the wealthy, I’m just looking to get them to actually pay some taxes.

Yes you are unless you currently believe the wealthy are violating current tax code. If that is the case then you should start by demanding Federal officials hold them accountable. If that’s not the case and you want tax code to be changed so that the wealthy pay more, well then…

 

[BuzzH]

This didn’t sound right given what I remember, so I looked it up. Pretty easy to find on multiple sources. It was used by many to describe why the tax cuts didn’t work as intended. I think @BigHornRam said something about “unintended consequences”. Funny part is I think these were completely intended.

2018: After big tax-rate cut, Harley shut a Kansas City plant—costing 800 local jobs—rewarded shareholders with $700 million in stock buybacks and opened a new facility in Thailand. But the motorcycle maker’s corporate-tax-cut story is not unique.

How America First of them. Those 800 employees just needed to contribute more to their 401's and forgo the new truck.

Nothing to see here, move along.

 

[TOGIE]

Yes you are unless you currently believe the wealthy are violating current tax code. If that is the case then you should start by demanding Federal officials hold them accountable. If that’s not the case and you want tax code to be changed so that the wealthy pay more, well then…

Right, I want my congress to close up the avenues the ultra wealthy utilize in massively reducing their tax burden. That could look like a lot of things. Maybe one of those things would be equity collateralized loans that are used for income being subject to income tax. Or maybe if you want cash to pay for your life when you don’t have a normal salary you just have to suck it up and sell stock to have cash and be subject to the tax burden just like the rest of us.

So it looks like we’ve come full circle to the first things SAJ and I posted on the matter

So I guess we now cue the chorus of how dumb those ideas are and I’m just jealous that im not rich Elizabeth warren yada yada and repeat the whole thing

 

[schmalts]

This didn’t sound right given what I remember, so I looked it up. Pretty easy to find on multiple sources. It was used by many to describe why the tax cuts didn’t work as intended. I think @BigHornRam said something about “unintended consequences”. Funny part is I think these were completely intended.

2018: After big tax-rate cut, Harley shut a Kansas City plant—costing 800 local jobs—rewarded shareholders with $700 million in stock buybacks and opened a new facility in Thailand. But the motorcycle maker’s corporate-tax-cut story is not unique.

You can't take that article as a snapshot of what really happened. Plants were shut in one state and work added and expanded in another. This is not all about cost savings, a lot of other things are in play... let's be real, the motorcycle industry is shrinking fast, it is not an HD thing and they had to shrink and consolidate, you just can't keep the same real estate and employee numbers when bike sales are tanking. The Thailand plant is a tariff play where they hit the USA with 80% tariff , and they make very few bikes with very few employees and none that are sold in the US, it is to skirt the out of whack tariff that gets put on the bikes sold over in those areas. How about the union workers getting the highest pay increase in contract in a decade during the same timeframe? Naw, that doesn't meet the narrative. So think what you want, I think I know a bit more than you do about the place. Maybe instead of downsizing and consolidating they should have did what the auto companies did and got a bunch of taxpayer money.

 

[schmalts]

How America First of them. Those 800 employees just needed to contribute more to their 401's and forgo the new truck.

Nothing to see here, move along.

There is nothing, because you only see what you want to believe. The rest of the facts are left out for you.

 

[Flatrock]

Did the Trump supported boycott of Harley hurt them?

 

[schmalts]

Let's start here Pat, we'll get the rest later.

Please explain how this situation is supposed to "put more in their 401K?" In particular anything close to the $20,500 limit.

I'm all ears.

Where's dad? You want to fill in for him?

 

[SAJ-99]

You can't take that article as a snapshot of what really happened. Plants were shut in one state and work added and expanded in another. This is not all about cost savings, a lot of other things are in play... let's be real, the motorcycle industry is shrinking fast, it is not an HD thing and they had to shrink and consolidate, you just can't keep the same real estate and employee numbers when bike sales are tanking. The Thailand plant is a tariff play where they hit the USA with 80% tariff , and they make very few bikes with very few employees and none that are sold in the US, it is to skirt the out of whack tariff that gets put on the bikes sold over in those areas. How about the union workers getting the highest pay increase in contract in a decade during the same timeframe? Naw, that doesn't meet the narrative. So think what you want, I think I know a bit more than you do about the place. Maybe instead of downsizing and consolidating they should have did what the auto companies did and got a bunch of taxpayer money.

I agree with your review. I saw they recently pulled out of India. Welcome to the world of being a global company. Exchange rate and all that. I’m not ignoring Union stuff. Just saying tax cuts were not applied (all Sunshine and roses) as you claimed. Most of what HD has argued over the last 15 yrs is that their labor costs are too high, but they also have a strong attachment from buyers on “built in America”. Tough position to be in.

 

[BuzzH]

You can't take that article as a snapshot of what really happened. Plants were shut in one state and work added and expanded in another. This is not all about cost savings, a lot of other things are in play... let's be real, the motorcycle industry is shrinking fast, it is not an HD thing and they had to shrink and consolidate, you just can't keep the same real estate and employee numbers when bike sales are tanking. The Thailand plant is a tariff play where they hit the USA with 80% tariff , and they make very few bikes with very few employees and none that are sold in the US, it is to skirt the out of whack tariff that gets put on the bikes sold over in those areas. How about the union workers getting the highest pay increase in contract in a decade during the same timeframe? Naw, that doesn't meet the narrative. So think what you want, I think I know a bit more than you do about the place. Maybe instead of downsizing and consolidating they should have did what the auto companies did and got a bunch of taxpayer money.

They didn't receive PPP money?

 

[BuzzH]

Where's dad? You want to fill in for him?

I want an answer from you, and Jamie Dimon.

If it helps you answer the question...let's say Dad was one of the lucky 800 who lost his job at HD. His life insurance lapsed and he got hit by a bus walking to a job interview at Walmart.

Now answer the question. How does a person making $15/hour pay for basic living expenses and max out their $20,500 a year 401 contribution?

It's almost as if 401ks were met to strongly favor high wage earners or something.

 

[schmalts]

I want an answer from you, and Jamie Dimon.

Edited, because it is more fun not to give you the answer and because I was reminded that the conversation is straying away from the topic of the thread.