American prairie. What's the issue?

[cgasner1]

You guys are eating beef? s

 

[Slam]

Yes, of course, just like they subsidize everything else, including grazing beef out west on public ground.

I am losing track of what the point of this conversation is about. There seems to be at least three or four or five different directions that is has gone. I am not sure any of them are profitable any longer.

Perhaps the wandering nature of this conversation has to do with the lack of a cogent argument against AP. Many have tried to stand the UPOM argument up, however, there doesn't seem to be anything of substance sticking to the wall.

 

[Gerald Martin]

You guys are eating beef? s

 

[Dave N]

You guys are eating beef? s

Have to. Couldn't find the damn rabbit!

 

[Straight Arrow]

Combine AP with all the other billionaires that have bought property and cut cattle numbers

Now you're spinning the truth and skewing reality to make a point that is not correct and right. The thousands of cattle grazing on AP lands belonging to neighbors who have the hat and the cattle does not pencil out as reality is that AP is raising a few bison and not competing with cattle ranchers ... nor is out to "cut cattle numbers".
Words have meaning; choose more wisely.

 

[antlerradar]

Now you're spinning the truth and skewing reality to make a point that is not correct and right. The thousands of cattle grazing on AP lands belonging to neighbors who have the hat and the cattle does not pencil out as reality is that AP is raising a few bison and not competing with cattle ranchers ... nor is out to "cut cattle numbers".
Words have meaning; choose more wisely.

Clearly I should have chosen my words more closely, My point went right by you. The point is groups like AP, billionaires and developers have taken 100 of thousands of acres and cut down the number of cattle on those acres. This is not a dig on AP or the billionaires. It is their property, they can do with it as they please. Second part of the point is that this is part of the reason Cattle numbers are at more then 50 year lows and why beef is so expensive at the store. I have some beefs with AP, them cutting cow numbers is not one of them.

 

[WanderWoman]

Clearly I should have chosen my words more closely, My point went right by you. The point is groups like AP, billionaires and developers have taken 100 of thousands and cut down the number of cattle on those acres. This is not a dig on AP or the billionaires. It is their property, they can do with it as they please. Second part of the point is that this is part of the reason Cattle numbers are at more then 50 year lows and why beef is so expensive at the store. I have some beefs with AP, them cutting cow numbers is not one of them.

This is not directed at you, antlerradar, but provides a segway into some ponderings I’ve had.

One thing I don’t get is the disparity in outrage over threats to the agricultural way of life. AP takes the most heat, yet when stacked against subdivision/development/billionaires, in my mind, the actual ‘threat’ to traditional ag AP poses is rather benign in comparison.. why is that?

Is it because they are a conservation organization, whereas the developers/billionaires better represent good ‘ol American capitalism? I remember listening (ugh) to Voices of Montana years back when the host talked about how the environmental movement was “like a watermelon: green on the outside, but communist red on the inside.” There just seems to be a lot of suspicion towards anything environmental/conservation-oriented (it’s changed and in some cases, improved over the last 10-15 years, but you still see it)..

Is it solely the idea of bison? I know it’s a part of it but I just struggle to wrap my head around bison being the sole reason. At this stage, plenty of other landowners have bison herds (I’m aware they’re not the same, but still..)

Is it the noise? A lot of these other land deals are done pretty quietly, whereas when AP or other entities purchase land for conservation-related purposes, it is loud (kinda has to be, given most of them need to fundraise, which requires a lot of horn-tooting). It’s probably a lot easier to direct an anti-such and such campaign against an NGO or two than it is the tens or hundreds (or more) of realtors, developers, or wealthy land-buyers.

There are definitely some things AP does/has done that make me lift an eyebrow or roll my eyes, but on the level of things threatening trad ag, wildlife habitat, and public access, I don’t put them near close to the top.

So.. why?

 

[Straight Arrow]

This is not directed at you, antlerradar, but provides a segway into some ponderings I’ve had.

One thing I don’t get is the disparity in outrage over threats to the agricultural way of life. AP takes the most heat, yet when stacked against subdivision/development/billionaires, in my mind, the actual ‘threat’ to traditional ag AP poses is rather benign in comparison.. why is that?

Is it because they are a conservation organization, whereas the developers/billionaires better represent good ‘ol American capitalism? I remember listening (ugh) to Voices of Montana years back when the host talked about how the environmental movement was “like a watermelon: green on the outside, but communist red on the inside.” There just seems to be a lot of suspicion towards anything environmental/conservation-oriented (it’s changed and in some cases, improved over the last 10-15 years, but you still see it)..

Is it solely the idea of bison? I know it’s a part of it but I just struggle to wrap my head around bison being the sole reason. At this stage, plenty of other landowners have bison herds (I’m aware they’re not the same, but still..)

Is it the noise? A lot of these other land deals are done pretty quietly, whereas when AP or other entities purchase land for conservation-related purposes, it is loud (kinda has to be, given most of them need to fundraise, which requires a lot of horn-tooting). It’s probably a lot easier to direct an anti-such and such campaign against an NGO or two than it is the tens or hundreds (or more) of realtors, developers, or wealthy land-buyers.

There are definitely some things AP does/has done that make me lift an eyebrow or roll my eyes, but on the level of things threatening trad ag, wildlife habitat, and public access, I don’t put them near close to the top.

So.. why?

Those are good points and a large valid question. IMO, it is not a simple answer; it's complex. However, there seems to be an overriding element as seen in the huge difference(s) in opposing ideologies. On one hand the great successes in this country due to capitalism and a solid economy are what drives the ideology of those whose financial goals are paramount.
On the other hand, for many Montanans and others the phrase "THE LAST BEST PLACE" resonates with desperation in that using natural resources to do business as usual and as continuously done across most of the country has obviously and disastrously impacted many landscapes and quality of life in severe adverse ways. That desperation has motivated conservation and protection of special places. AP is an example of not only protection but also of returning a landscape through science and research to prior natural state and employment, obviously perceived as a threat to UPOM and others with such a strong opposing ideology.

 

[antlerradar]

This is not directed at you, antlerradar, but provides a segway into some ponderings I’ve had.

One thing I don’t get is the disparity in outrage over threats to the agricultural way of life. AP takes the most heat, yet when stacked against subdivision/development/billionaires, in my mind, the actual ‘threat’ to traditional ag AP poses is rather benign in comparison.. why is that?

Is it because they are a conservation organization, whereas the developers/billionaires better represent good ‘ol American capitalism? I remember listening (ugh) to Voices of Montana years back when the host talked about how the environmental movement was “like a watermelon: green on the outside, but communist red on the inside.” There just seems to be a lot of suspicion towards anything environmental/conservation-oriented (it’s changed and in some cases, improved over the last 10-15 years, but you still see it)..

Is it solely the idea of bison? I know it’s a part of it but I just struggle to wrap my head around bison being the sole reason. At this stage, plenty of other landowners have bison herds (I’m aware they’re not the same, but still..)

Is it the noise? A lot of these other land deals are done pretty quietly, whereas when AP or other entities purchase land for conservation-related purposes, it is loud (kinda has to be, given most of them need to fundraise, which requires a lot of horn-tooting). It’s probably a lot easier to direct an anti-such and such campaign against an NGO or two than it is the tens or hundreds (or more) of realtors, developers, or wealthy land-buyers.

There are definitely some things AP does/has done that make me lift an eyebrow or roll my eyes, but on the level of things threatening trad ag, wildlife habitat, and public access, I don’t put them near close to the top.

So.. why?

They had a very bad PR when they first started.

When I was on the region 7 CAC, FWP invited AP to come and talk the CAC. The presentation the spokesman gave was likely designed to entice wealthy environmentally leaning people to give donations. It was a big flop with anyone associated with agriculture. I can not remember the exact words use as it has been around twenty years, but here is the short version. We are the smart people and we are going to use a holistic scientific approach to save the prairie from the uneducated hay seed hick rancher that have been destroying the prairie for the last 100 years. I have a fairly calm demeanor, It is hard to get me hot, but that presentation had me pissed.

 

[SAJ-99]

They had a very bad PR when they first started.

When I was on the region 7 CAC, FWP invited AP to come and talk the CAC. The presentation the spokesman gave was likely designed to entice wealthy environmentally leaning people to give donations. It was a big flop with anyone assoiated with agriculture. I can not remeber the exact words use as it has been around twenty years, but here is the short version. We are the smart people and we are going to use a wholistic scientific approch to save the prairie from the uneducted hay seed hick rancher that have been destroing the prairie for the last 100 years. I have a faily calm demenor, It is hard to get me hot, but that presentaion had me pissed.

But they weren’t wrong. We have lost 50% of our sagebrush habitat and introduced species that further degrade the health of the ecosystem. Farmers and ranchers do things that improve the bottom line and they don’t like being told how they might do something better. It’s always been that way. Try explaining to an Iowa farmer that the fertilizer that boosts his yield is creating a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. Change is slow and hard.

 

[WanderWoman]

They had a very bad PR when they first started.

When I was on the region 7 CAC, FWP invited AP to come and talk the CAC. The presentation the spokesman gave was likely designed to entice wealthy environmentally leaning people to give donations. It was a big flop with anyone assoiated with agriculture. I can not remeber the exact words use as it has been around twenty years, but here is the short version. We are the smart people and we are going to use a wholistic scientific approch to save the prairie from the uneducted hay seed hick rancher that have been destroing the prairie for the last 100 years. I have a faily calm demenor, It is hard to get me hot, but that presentaion had me pissed.

Ouch. Yeah I’d say I’d be mad, too.

I distinctly remember more than one instance of failure to ‘read a room’ with particularly ranchers. And word spreads like wildfire in the ag community. The acceptance of similar efforts (TNC/Matador Ranch) supports this, as TNC’s engagement with local communities has been different, and they enjoy much broader support.

Again though… And maybe this is because I’m not a producer and I have it wrong (happy to be educated here) I would think(?) I’d prefer AP as a neighbor as opposed to a recreational land buyer whose management tends to propagate elk, which results in game damage on my property as one example.

To me bad PR doesn’t entirely account for one entity being held to the flames while others are largely ‘let off the hook’ so to speak. Landowners are smarter than that. There’s gotta be more to it…?

 

[antlerradar]

But they weren’t wrong. We have lost 50% of our sagebrush habitat and introduced species that further degrade the health of the ecosystem. Farmers and ranchers do things that improve the bottom line and they don’t like being told how they might do something better. It’s always been that way. Try explaining to an Iowa farmer that the fertilizer that boosts his yield is creating a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. Change is slow and hard.

I can take criticism. Had more than a few disagreements with a certain forest service employee, I also consider him one of my best friends. It wasn't so much what AP had to say but how they said it.
They are not always right ether. The bison of 200 years ago traveled in herds numbering in the thousands, North into Canada and south to the Yellowstone and beyond. AP will never be able to duplicate that. The sagebrush you talk of likely never existed 150 years ago in eastern MT. Fire science tells us that we burned frequently. Big Sage would never be able to establish vast expanses of sage with a fire frequency of every 15 years. The big expanses of big sage were likely a result of fire suppression and heavy grazing by cattle and sheep. Big Sage increases with grazing pressure.

 

[SAJ-99]

I can take criticism. Had more than a few disagreements with a certain forest service employee, I also consider him one of my best friends. It wasn't so much what AP had to say but how they said it.
They are not always right ether. The bison of 200 years ago traveled in herds numbering in the thousands, North into Canada and south to the Yellowstone and beyond. AP will never be able to duplicate that. The sagebrush you talk of likely never existed 150 years ago in eastern MT. Fire science tells us that we burned frequently. Big Sage would never be able to establish vast expanses of sage with a fire frequency of every 15 years. The big expanses of big sage were likely a result of fire suppression and heavy grazing by cattle and sheep. Big Sage increases with grazing pressure.

Agree. What is possible will never be known if no one is willing to change. But the bottom line is no one is going to convince me that the prairies are more productive today than they were 200 years ago after millions of years of evolutionary change and adaptation. It just doesn’t fit the capitalist model.

 

[antlerradar]

Ouch. Yeah I’d say I’d be mad, too.

I distinctly remember more than one instance of failure to ‘read a room’ with particularly ranchers. And word spreads like wildfire in the ag community. The acceptance of similar efforts (TNC/Matador Ranch) supports this, as TNC’s engagement with local communities has been different, and they enjoy much broader support.

Again though… And maybe this is because I’m not a producer and I have it wrong (happy to be educated here) I would think(?) I’d prefer AP as a neighbor as opposed to a recreational land buyer whose management tends to propagate elk, which results in game damage on my property as one example.

To me bad PR doesn’t entirely account for one entity being held to the flames while others are largely ‘let off the hook’ so to speak. Landowners are smarter than that. There’s gotta be more to it…?

Big difference between being the threat the others are and claiming you are the threat. That was taking it to a whole different level by AP.

 

[antlerradar]

Agree. What is possible will never be known if no one is willing to change. But the bottom line is no one is going to convince me that the prairies are more productive today than they were 200 years ago after millions of years of evolutionary change and adaptation. It just doesn’t fit the capitalist model.

That depends on your definition of productivity.

 

[Straight Arrow]

We are the smart people and we are going to use a holistic scientific approach to save the prairie from the uneducated hay seed hick rancher that have been destroying the prairie for the last 100 years. I have a fairly calm demeanor, It is hard to get me hot, but that presentation had me pissed.

That perception of the AP presentation certainly warranted your reaction. However, it is extremely antithetical to my perception of the AP message and stated goals. Having visited AP in different places, attended presentations, spent time in the Lewistown interpretive center, and continuously received information and program updates, my perception and subsequent support of AP is very different from yours.
'Don't know who it was who presented twenty years ago, but obviously ignorance of the audience and poor choice of words painted a description which may have offended many Montanans, ag producers or not.
The "smart people" seen on the landscape are well educated range managers collaborating with Smithsonian scientists and working with others who are working hard researching, analyzing, and striving to improve the area. Getting hung up on issues regarding sage brush is missing essential elements and goals of this work.
Obviously, I am supportive of AP for many reasons. I encourage anyone such as yourself to learn more and attempt to open up a more positive perspective in contrast to a clearly stuck-in-the-UPOM-mud negative point of view.