Yeti GOBOX Collection

American Prairie Reserve - Nothing new

. . . Private parks for the wealthy and the upper echelon. This is an example:

”. . . We have a campground where you can stay for $10, and we'll open more of those, . . . ”
Just to be clear, you are saying developing $10 campgrounds is making private parks exclusively for the wealthy and upper echelon? Wow, your definition of wealthy and mine are quite different.

Ya, I know it also referenced a "high-end safari resort", but how does that stop the $10 campers?
 
Anyone know where he is pulling all this BS from? Is there a blog, forum, or site that's cranking out anti-AP propaganda for the gullible?
 
So again, more seriously:

@Gila's facts may be off but there's some wisdom to be gleaned here. Wealthy elites owning the vast majority of private land isn't the best thing for America, IMO. It is however an uniquely American way to turn the free market into a feudal society. UK royalty used to be the old west version of the Wilks, Turners, Jones, et al. Now it's the oligarchs of America who are trying to save the west by purchasing it all. You can be conflicted about the great value of private land conservation and keeping large tracts of unbroken land together while also mourning the loss of family ag, reduced independence and self-determination and call into question the future plans of a large non-profit. None of these things are exclusive to the others.

Private land conservation is a far different beast than public land conservation. It relies solely on the largess & ethic of the landowner. With AP, we know their plans and we know those plans may change, but for now, and on many of their properties, for perpetuity, there is and will be access for recreation, hunting and angling. AP comes closest to the model that most of us approve of: public land with some management prescriptions for quality of experience.

Turner offers a different model - and it's based on both the value of a conservation easement as well as monetizing the wildlife resource to act as a revenue stream for maintaining large properties. Turner is more of a community partner than the Wilk's, however. The Wilk's have tried for years to go at this from a top-down approach and I do see them changing that approach at least in the Lewistown area. Then you have people like Arthur Blank, who now owns 4 prime properties in the Paradise Valley and responsible for about 60% of the elk harvest in that area through a free public hunting program for cows and a limited entry bull opportunity to try and grow more bulls but still provide the right mix of cow-bull opportunities. Blank also funds heavily in the valley with community support.

AP offers access in an open & honest fashion through Block Management and sometimes they open limited access to other properties through lotteries, etc (like the Marias River WMA). They lease ground based on their management plan to small, young farmers & ranchers, giving them the opportunity to build a herd & get some experience before seeking their own spread (if they can find and afford one). AP also spends millions in the local economies of Lewistown, Havre, Malta, Glasgow, etc. That shouldn't be overlooked in the grand scheme of things.

TNC's access program is largely built around the needs of the resource, i.e. if the feeling is that a lot of recreation is going to impact plant communities, water resources, etc they will severely limit or curtail it. Some of the best fish I've caught in WY were from the TNC property on the Wind River, which is on a reservation system and fills up fast. They also offer hunting for elk on a river bottom herd on a controlled fashion. Other properties allow more access, others less, some no access. That's their prerogative as private landowners.

The idea that a private landowner should open their gates for access is a non-starter. Private Property rights trump hunting access privilege's. That's how it should be. I shouldn't be able to demand access to anyone's land, and the Gov't shouldn't either. That right to be secure in our own homes & private property is literally enshrined in the Constitution.

Questioning the goals and tactics that private land conservationists take isn't a bad thing at all. It helps those private land conservationists focus their efforts and become better community partners. However, questioning their motives without actually listening to those who have first hand knowledge and input is a bad idea as well. It simply means you want to argue and not educate yourself.

Small operators are getting squeezed by the Billionaire class and groups like AP. That's a function of the free market dictating higher prices on lands, and the lack of desire to sell land at strict ag pricing when you can get amenity pricing. One rancher said to me a few months ago "It feels like we're becoming serfs to these people." That's a statement that should set all of us back and think about how our support of one large landowner or another can often times have unintended consequences. In AP's case, I think they recognize that and they're looking to be community-conscious in how they approach their conservation strategies. Programs like Wild Sky Beef, etc are voluntary programs in which ranchers work with AP on management programs that help wildlife and increase market potential. That's a good thing, even if some folks feel it's not well executed.

The west saw this drama unfold over 100 years ago in Arizona, Montana, Wyoming, etc. The wealthy elites came and owned the land and tried to own us all. No period of time exemplifies this more than the Johnson County Cattle War. The people of Buffalo lined up at the dry good store and they were handed Winchesters off the shelf and holed up the invading army hired by the wealthy elites of the Wyoming Stockgrowers and they shot the hell out of them, but not before the invaders dry- gulched dozens of small homesteaders and sheep farmers. The Nate Champion murder story still should ring true to many of us. In case folks haven't read the book, Banditti of the Plains is a first hand account of that invasion. Hal Herring had a great write up of the effort in Field & Stream a few years back as well: https://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/guns/2013/02/johnson-county-war/

When elites hold unchecked power, the people suffer. Consequently, if the elites are doing something good with their time, money and energy, we should be there to help guide them as neighbors and not simply knee-jerk a reaction based on some spotty information.
 
From the tone of the article, your wife would be highly supportive of the accomplishments and vision of the American Prairie of Montana.
Once again your references seem to contradict your criticisms. Bison on the grasslands seems to be in concert with the Lakota Circle of Life.
Exposure to the AP conservation and protection of the landscape through a guided safari to raise funds to support the worthy effort equates to something really positive to most conservation minded folks. (Plus even my ten bucks as a "wealthy donor" staying at the Buffalo camp contributes.) What is the downside?
She feels that AP’s effort is entirely futile to the point of being nothing more than a money making scheme that will continue to damage the prairie, maybe forever this time. Clarence Mortensen conducted a 50 year experiment to try and bring the prairie habitat on his ranch back to the way it was before the settlers with their cattle and sheep devastated the prairie. And of course they extirpated the buffalo which were vital to maintain the prairie habitat.

She said the buffalo (the lakota language doesn’t correlate to bison) are gone and there is no way they can return to a prairie which is barren and completely devoid of their required habitat. She said there is no way wachichu could implement the circle of life because they don’t understand it. Other Tribal ranches are using the same methods from the Mortensen Ranch to restore the habitat on their own ranches. This effort is on a small scale and it takes decades before the habitat actually comes back. However as a result, cattle ranching has become more sustainable.

The tribes have their “pet“ herds of buffalo, but they understand that there is no way that the buffalo can roam free on their cattle ranches, or leased grazing land for that matter. The cattle are moved over seasonal plants much like the way that the buffalo herds used to move only on a small scale. What this does is to simulate how the buffalo actually aerated the soil and “chisel” plowed the seeds into the soil. As a result, previously extinct plant species are now growing on these ranches. These previously extinct plant species maintained the buffalo herds.

That is the plant issue but then there is a water issue to be solved. The damaged habitat caused natural springs to dry up. Clarence found a way to re-connect the aquifer and then the springs came back to life and trees were growing where previously, grass woudn’t even grow.

So there you have it. She also said that in order to repair the prairie habitat, the plant species that were indigenous to that particular area must be reintroduced.
 
Based on the misleading claims & 1/2 truths, I'd say there's a good shot that he's getting this from Range magazine & Dave Skinner.
I gave my sources...all creditable news sources and peer reviewed scientific research.
 
is this worth our time anymore?

or do we need to make sure the lurkers see reasonable responses to this stuff?

i can say a spring drying up probably has less to do with pure habitat destruction than it does larger scale water budgets in a groundwater/surface water system.
 
She feels that AP’s effort is entirely futile to the point of being nothing more than a money making scheme that will continue to damage the prairie, maybe forever this time.

I'm having a helluva time tracking your logic on this topic. What exactly distinguishes the AP from the tribal efforts to do the same?
 

I'm having a helluva time tracking your logic on this topic. What exactly distinguishes the AP from the tribal efforts to do the same?
There is no logic to track. It is a study...all good stuff though. The tribes may find that raising buffalo is more profitable than cattle, but the habitat has to be restored before the buffalo arrive. You still need fences and good ones. The tribes have tried it and so far it hasn’t worked out so well. Just because you put buffalo on previously destroyed prairie habitat doesn’t mean that habitat will come back....the opposite is true. The Mortensen Ranch Project proved that the prairie natural habitat must be reseeded over time and to do that the natural water sources must be restored. SDSU has thousands of pages of research and studies about it.
 
There is no logic to track. It is a study...all good stuff though. The tribes may find that raising buffalo is more profitable than cattle, but the habitat has to be restored before the buffalo arrive. You still need fences and good ones. The tribes have tried it and so far it hasn’t worked out so well. Just because you put buffalo on previously destroyed prairie habitat doesn’t mean that habitat will come back....the opposite is true. The Mortensen Ranch Project proved that the prairie natural habitat must be reseeded over time and to do that the natural water sources must be restored. SDSU has thousands of pages of research and studies about it.
Been working fine for Turner and AP with bison for a long time. I worked for Ted for 3 years and cattle don't replicate bison on how they use the land. You're wrong, bison and cattle behave much different in how they utilize the land. A herd of bison will not impact the land the same way a herd of cattle will, just a fact. I watched it, studied it, and wrote reports and management plans about it for 3 years.

I would also like a list of all these plants that went extinct from short and tall grass prairie ecosystems that bison just can't live without.
 
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There is no logic to track.
Finally, we're making progress.

Have you visited the AP lands? While there is some invasive species, there is also an incredible amount of native prairie still out there. You seem to be making a point akin to perfection is needed before bison can exist(?) on the AP lands, or that in the presence of minor invasive species forage bison only do more harm than good by...? If that latter is the point you making, there is also a plethora of studies to suggest otherwise. It's not just AP that are using bison for restoration, many of our public lands are doing the same.

 
After 5 pages I see nothing to show AP is not doing a heck of a job managing property so that the property will be even better over the coming decades than if left in the hands of for-profit private ranchers that might be tempted to sell to someone that might carve the land into small pieces. For those that feel AP is not accomplishing something that is good then I have great news for you. Start your own group to buy up large swaths of land and show us a better way to manage the property for conservation, hunting, fishing and recreation. As my grandpappy said, the thing about work is it is actually work and not much fun while you are doing it. AP is doing it. We are merely flapping our jaws while another McMansion is built and more fences put up on land AP does not control.
 
There is no logic to track. It is a study...all good stuff though. The tribes may find that raising buffalo is more profitable than cattle, but the habitat has to be restored before the buffalo arrive. You still need fences and good ones. The tribes have tried it and so far it hasn’t worked out so well. Just because you put buffalo on previously destroyed prairie habitat doesn’t mean that habitat will come back....the opposite is true. The Mortensen Ranch Project proved that the prairie natural habitat must be reseeded over time and to do that the natural water sources must be restored. SDSU has thousands of pages of research and studies about it.
Respectfully, the ITBC & many tribes would disagree with your statements.
 
This is just one of the reasons why the habitat should be restored before the buffalo arrive:

“The success of the bison living almost exclusively off grassland plants in all seasons is testimony to the high forage value of the native range.”

I'll read you link if you get it to work. I went to the ecosunprairiefarms pubs page and none of the 5 studies match that link.


But I still don't get it. You seem to actually care about the prairie, yet are wearing some tinfoil hat to think the AP isn't trying to do everything they can to restore the prairie given their own individual constraints. Maybe they're not doing it exactly the way you would, but it's so friggin' close most can't even tell a difference. Why? Why are you doing this, what's the motive?
 
what's the motive?
After his acknowledgement of ignorance of Montana public access programs and moreover of the hunting legacy and dynamics of this state, as well as the skewed perspective of the programs and goals of AP, my instinct tells me he has some relationship with UPOM or at least with one or several of the "Save the cowboy" crowd. Either case, Gila is certainly not detracting from the successes of AP or from the strong support of HTers. He is merely alienating himself from this hunting and public lands advocacy, apparently with no self awareness of the futility of his pontification that is emphasized by links to information which contradict his own assertions.
It seems to support my daughter's oft heard pearls of wisdom, "You cannot apply logic where it does not exist!" and "You just can't fix stupid!"
 
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