Administration Removing Protections from Tongass National Forest

[SAJ-99]

Imagine planning a OYO, DIY, Solo, Public Land adventure to hunt bears or deer in SE Alaska and not using logging roads to get around. This cheap hunts on subsidized roads sure would get expensive.

Or imagine planning that backcountry adventure and getting to your predetemeined camping location to find a couple of people who drove in from the other side on a road. there has to be some balance between deadly impossible Alaska stuff and Montana road hunting.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Imagine planning a OYO, DIY, Solo, Public Land adventure to hunt bears or deer in SE Alaska and not using logging roads to get around. This cheap hunts on subsidized roads sure would get expensive.

Salient point. Having spent a summer as a timber cruiser in the Tongass, I can appreciate the local perspective. It's easy to be knee jerk to either extreme, and illustrates the importance of having folks in decision making positions that utilize science.

 

[Bluffgruff]

I would rather they logged it and utilized the trees instead of letting them stand to get blown down by high winds and rotting. I have been there several times. Thats what happens in old growth timber that is a 100 + years old.

We have such a shortage of lumber right now in the US its pathetic. I am tired of the east cost trees being cut to be put on trucks and shipped to comifornia, Oregon, and Washington to re-build houses that have burned because of their liberal policies when they have renewal resources just to the north of them.

This is short-sighted.
Who cares if we have a shortage. Maybe that will lead to more efficiency so we don't have to log the hard to get stuff that costs tax payers more in this plan?

 

[Rainer]

It's funny that people rag on California and New York for being "to liberal" yet have no problem with using the tax revenue they generate to run the country.

The Softwood trade war is only going to get worse now that Canada now has deals in the making with more Asian countries. All the government needs to do is pay their bills and take off the tariff they added 3 years ago. The WTO has ruled 3 times already to end this. I would really hate to see this park turn into some of the valleys in British Columbia. The clear cutting has brought in unwanted species, more predator's, diseases like CWD and has destroyed crucial Salmon runs. Coho's and Sockeyes will soon be considered threatened in BC.

 

[muskeg]

This is a link to an article published 10 years ago in the B&C magazine ... it is about the issues over Deer that have been happening on Prince of Wales Island .. GMU #2

The Blacktail populations have not fared so well in the wake of the boom and bust logging activity on POW Island.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...67f/1541710703798/Brinkman+2010+FairChase.pdf

 

[shrapnel]

This is from the “Washington Post” I neither condemn it or condone it, I just copied the article. It doesn’t take a clairvoyant to determine the background of the writer, but it seems we have forgotten where all resources come from. Nothing used to build my house came from another planet, and I am happy that somebody cut some trees somewhere so I could live in my house.


For years, federal and academic scientists have identified Tongass as an ecological oasis that serves as a massive carbon sink while providing key habitat for wild Pacific salmon and trout, Sitka black-tailed deer and myriad other species. It boasts the highest density of brown bears in North America, and its trees — some of which are between 300 and 1,000 years old — absorb at least 8 percent of all the carbon stored in the entire Lower 48′s forests combined.
“While tropical rainforests are the lungs of the planet, the Tongass is the lungs of North America,” Dominick DellaSala, chief scientist with the Earth Island Institute’s Wild Heritage project, said in an interview. “It’s America’s last climate sanctuary.”

 

[Big Fin]

My crew is there right now filming two scientists hunting Sitka Blacktails. I would have given anything to join them.

If one believes science, which seems to be less and less the case these days, it will show that improper logging practices have negative impacts on Sitka Blacktails. The B&C study linked in a prior post shows some of that.

To summarize what three scientists have told me when I've hunted with them, the deer have very small winter ranges, most of which is along the coastal shorelines. That is a very narrow band of a few hundred yards where the temperate benefits of the ocean does not allow the snow depths to accumulate to the levels further/higher from the shoreline. Deer in such high densities on these small bands of winter habitat puts long-term pressure on those habitats and allows for greater mortality due to hunting and predation.

There is a ton of summer habitat, surely not the constraint to the population. When the snow melts, the deer move up and make great use of these summer grounds.

The challenge is protecting the corridors the deer need to migrate from the summer habitats to their winter habitats. Clear cutting, a past practice, has removed the canopy to a point that the snow accumulations can get too deep for the deer to traverse those logged areas while traveling from their summer to winter habitats.

Proper cutting will leave some of those corridors intact, where the tree canopies keep the snow from accumulating to such unnavigable depths as happens in a clear cut. It is unfortunate that in most of the logging sites I've seen there, clear cut has been more of the practice, not less.

I come from a logging family. I'm a big proponent of logging as a necessary business for our resources and for the benefits proper logging might provide to some habitat types. Even with that, I struggle to see logging as exempt from the requirement that it be done in a manner that causes the least impact to others, both the wildlife and the locals who depend on it.

When a resource issue requires government Executive Orders or special riders attached to popular legislation, it is usually indicative that someone is getting their political favor repaid and the science is going to take a back seat to the interests of those who are buying/selling political favors. That is what happened with the Tongass and the logging now being proposed.

Anyone who thinks logging the Tongass is going to change the price of lumber in the Lower 48 understands nothing about the Alaska log/timber market. Over 75% of these trees will go to Asia as sawlogs, not sent to the Lower 48 for use here. The rest will be milled in Alaska or used as bio fuels.

If we're going to have a discussion about what materials we build our houses with, where it comes from, and how logs cut on the Tongass impact those topics (they don't impact it), let's at least use facts that are relevant to the discussion. History shows that Alaska logging is not beneficial to wildlife, mostly due to pressures to maximize profits (read clear cut or close to clear cut), and it does nothing to improve timber/lumber supply in the Lower 48.

I have family and friends who have been involved in the logging and timber in SE AK since the 1970s. As they explain how expensive it is to log these places, thus how it needs to be done in order to be profitable, I'm not confident it will be done with much appreciation for other aspects or other folks who use the forests for food or livelihood.

I hope it can be done in a sustainable manner that respects the needs of the other local citizens, the deer, bear, fish, and other wild things. History doesn't show that to be the case on the public lands or the Native Corporation lands.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Being selective about where you log doesn't make you any more anti logging than not marrying every girl you date somhow make you anti marriage or not into women.
Same goes with mining.

 

[shrapnel]

Granted, logging needs to be done with all sorts of environmental and social consideration, but as a whole, it has been targeted as evil and wrong. Timber harvesting is driven by money and if it wasn’t profitable, it wouldn’t happen.

My son worked as an engineer for the Forest Service in Ketchikan and timber cutting isn’t new there. The Forest Service had to submit over 60 cutting proposals to even get one past the environmental community that can sue with impunity and stop any possible timber sale without recourse.

Logging does have it’s merits, and it isn’t acceptable to only move in that direction for the sake of profit, but on the grand scale of things, it is attacked for mostly unfounded concerns that go beyond conservation.

No one likes hunting and the outdoors more than I do, but I also know there are natural resources that can only be harvested from timber sales and mining. The balance between destruction of our forests and effective logging, can exist and is scrutinized by many environmental concerns to preserve our resources that most certainly includes the game we hunt.

Randy, if you remember your video on the “Grizzly Basin” you did a few years ago, you will see how they have logged that area in the years since then. Elk still exist there and my sons and I still get elk with a bow almost every year there.

I am not in favor of clear cutting all our forests, but I also know that the environmental community almost has a stranglehold on the extraction industry and we all benefit from good mining and logging practices.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Granted, logging needs to be done with all sorts of environmental and social consideration, but as a whole, it has been targeted as evil and wrong. Timber harvesting is driven by money and if it wasn’t profitable, it wouldn’t happen.

My son worked as an engineer for the Forest Service in Ketchikan and timber cutting isn’t new there. The Forest Service had to submit over 60 cutting proposals to even get one past the environmental community that can sue with impunity and stop any possible timber sale without recourse.

Logging does have it’s merits, and it isn’t acceptable to only move in that direction for the sake of profit, but on the grand scale of things, it is attacked for mostly unfounded concerns that go beyond conservation.

No one likes hunting and the outdoors more than I do, but I also know there are natural resources that can only be harvested from timber sales and mining. The balance between destruction of our forests and effective logging, can exist and is scrutinized by many environmental concerns to preserve our resources that most certainly includes the game we hunt.

Randy, if you remember your video on the “Grizzly Basin” you did a few years ago, you will see how they have logged that area in the years since then. Elk still exist there and my sons and I still get elk with a bow almost every year there.

I am not in favor of clear cutting all our forests, but I also know that the environmental community almost has a stranglehold on the extraction industry and we all benefit from good mining and logging practices.

Was any of this meant to be about the tongass?
I just see vague comments that are pro logging and mining.
I don't see other posters arguing against the concept of logging or mining.

 

[shrapnel]

Was any of this meant to be about the tongass?
I just see vague comments that are pro logging and mining.
I don't see other posters arguing against the concept of logging or mining.

Ketchikan is the center of the Tongass Forest. I have been there many times and hunted and fished there. Are you aware of the destruction of that forest or that potential destruction? I am only another voice, I understand that, but I also realize how people can pile on and condemn certain practices without knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the topic of discussion.

I don’t come here to argue, I just feel that sometimes we can overlook some of the facts in the decision making process and be too critical. No I am not in favor of clear cutting and destruction of our forests, it I do understand the need for good management. Trump also proposes other Forest management to be better stewards to our forests that requires reinstating some abandoned practices in our forests that have contributed to wildfires and air quality.

We live in an area that historically had consistent clean air until recently when the fires from Oregon and California have caused months through the summer with smoke so thick you couldn’t even see the mountains.

My position does reflect personal knowledge of forests and management, I just feel that we do need to recognize that trees are renewable and managed correctly can benefit many diverse philosophies.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Ketchikan is the center of the Tongass Forest. I have been there many times and hunted and fished there. Are you aware of the destruction of that forest or that potential destruction? I am only another voice, I understand that, but I also realize how people can pile on and condemn certain practices without knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the topic of discussion.

I don’t come here to argue, I just feel that sometimes we can overlook some of the facts in the decision making process and be too critical. No I am not in favor of clear cutting and destruction of our forests, it I do understand the need for good management. Trump also proposes other Forest management to be better stewards to our forests that requires reinstating some abandoned practices in our forests that have contributed to wildfires and air quality.

We live in an area that historically had consistent clean air until recently when the fires from Oregon and California have caused months through the summer with smoke so thick you couldn’t even see the mountains.

My position does reflect personal knowledge of forests and management, I just feel that we do need to recognize that trees are renewable and managed correctly can benefit many diverse philosophies.

Did you read all of the links and comments in this thread?
so despite all of the negative aspects of logging in the tongass you support doing it? Have you stated specifically why you support it?
You said that logging has to be profitable but everything about this project says it isn't and won't be. Why do you think it will be?
I agree we have a lot of places in the us that should be logged but from what I read this project stinks from one end to the other.

 

[AndyPOW]

The negative consequences of this decision will be felt for generations. If you care to read about it, the ADF&G report is here: "Many of the old growth stands slated for harvest are among the last remaining stands of high quality deer winter habitat and travel corridors within their respective drainages within the central part of POW. In addition, the Sealaska Lands Bill passed Congress in December 2014. That bill transfers 70,000 acres or approximately 110 square miles of old-growth forest from the Tongass National Forest to the Sealaska Corporation. Most of that land is within Unit 2 and will be subject to clearcut logging. Sizeable units on State of Alaska and Alaska Mental Health Trust lands in the Control Junction and Coffman Cove areas are currently being logged, further contributing to the loss of high quality deer habitat. Although early seral stages of clear-cuts provide abundant deer forage during snow free periods, within 20 to 30 years the regenerating second-growth forest reaches the stem exclusion stage where the canopy closes and shades out understory plants important for deer forage. "and "Old-growth forest retains important winter forage and intercepts snowfall making that forage
more available to deer during periods of deep snow. Population models estimate declines in carrying capacity for deer of 50–60% by the end of the U. S. Forest Service planned logging rotation in 2054. By then we expect few areas within road accessible and logged portions of Unit
2 will meet projected hunter demand for deer (USFS 1989). The USFS is investigating thinning and other ways of creating openings in the canopy of second-growth forest, but any benefits to deer may be short-lived and will not provide winter habitat (Farmer et. al. 2006). Long-term
consequences of habitat loss are likely to include reductions in deer hunting opportunity and an
inability to provide for subsistence needs." and. . . "We should better inform the public regarding the effects of logging on deer populations, so that they are aware of tradeoffs between timber harvest and wildlife. We anticipate that logging related reductions in important winter habitat will reduce deer carrying capacity for decades to come. The long term consequences of habitat loss include loss of hunting opportunity and the inability to provide for subsistence needs of rural residents (Wood 1990, Larsen 1993)." http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/.../deer_smr_2015_3_chapter_4...

 

[AndyPOW]

A rain event 10 days ago caused over 50 landslides on Prince of Wales Island. . . all caused by logging on steep slopes. The logging companies and the Forest Service knew this would happen when they were planning these cuts. The damaged roads, power lines, salmon creeks etc. . .are all externalized costs for them borne by the residents and taxpayers. Another example of privatize the profits and socialize the losses. Now we are in the midst of a 4"-8" rain event, with more landslides expected.

 

[AndyPOW]

Looking at the map, about half the forest is park or wilderness.
View attachment 160046
Curious how much of the areas Trump wants to reopen to logging are second growth? I read some of the authors other articles and they are what I suspected. Full of agenda and misleading information. That said I will leave it up to the Alaska residents to fight this one out. My focus is on forest issues closer to home.

I live in the Tongass. None of it is second growth, since those areas already have roads.

 

[brocksw]

Biden administration ends large-scale logging of old-growth timber in Alaska’s Tongass National Forest

Smaller timber sales, including some old-growth trees, will still be offered for local communities and cultural uses such as totem poles, canoes and tribal artisan use, the Forest Service said.

www.adn.com

 

[Irrelevant]

Biden administration ends large-scale logging of old-growth timber in Alaska’s Tongass National Forest

Smaller timber sales, including some old-growth trees, will still be offered for local communities and cultural uses such as totem poles, canoes and tribal artisan use, the Forest Service said.

www.adn.com

It's really just a stay for 4-8 years. But I'll take it.

 

[jejack26]

Is this true? We cover road costs?

Delete

 

[Akcabin]

I see logging as a way to get access to public lands. Opening up many areas that otherwise would not be available. Changes In habitat attracts more varied species.
Having more access to these areas for the public to be able to explore is good for the local economy for many years. Adding to the total economic development. Us folks spend a lot of bucks when we're cruising through these areas. But like most studies with numbers a lot depends on whos figuring out what numbers to use.
There have been mistakes and things like landslides. And there's been many successful logging sites.
The federal government has incentives for farmers, fishersman, petroleum industries, electrical subsadies, pharmaceutical. Probably should cut them all off.
Responsible resource development can happen but needs a chance first.
I enjoy flying over n seeing the forest but I'd kinda like to be able to access them also. I don't have the answers but seems things could be managed better.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I enjoy flying over n seeing the forest but I'd kinda like to be able to access them also.

Lacking roads doesn't necessarily make something inaccessible. In fact it is usually what draws many to an area.