6.5-284 Norma vs. 6.5-284 Winchester

[Redmt]

I'm helping a non-internet buddy looking for some RCBS dies for his 6.5-284 Norma. Is there a difference between the Norma and Winchester cartridges? Nobody seems to have any in stock and I'm on the alert list at RCBS but if anybody has an RCBS die set I would be interested in buying them.
John

 

[MThuntr]

The Norma is the SAAMI standardized version and the Winchester is the "wildcat". The Winchester could be a few thousandths narrower at the base than the Norma. I see posts all over that guys are using them interchangeable but that bothers my OCD even though it's likely not a big deal.

Honestly if I needed dies I would snag what I could. I see 6.5-284 Norma dies made by Hornady, Redding, and LE Wilson are available on Midway

 

[Redmt]

He got a set of the Hornady dies and ordered the neck bushing . They have been a nightmare. The neck bushing seems to be bell shaped as well as oval. Redding has never been his (or mine) go to die. He has been reloading since probably the early 70's. So experience isn't a factor here. I'm not familiar with the LE Wilson dies. RCBS may not be the most precision dies out there but they are consistent and their customer service can't be beat.

Thanks for the info on the difference in the 2 versions. I will check out the LE Wilsons and he can make the choice as to whether or not he want to deal with midway. Their customer service in my experience is poor.

 

[std7mag]

I thought 6.5-284 Win was SAAMI.
6.5-284 Norma is CIP.

Only real differences are the chamber. Norma has a longer freebore and higher pressure rating.

 

[old roper 42]

The 6.5x284 Norma OAL is 3.228". That's reason for long throat. Plus it won't fit short action. I build my 284 on long action and seat bullet out to 3.300".

I shot 6.5-284 Norma couple years and had Wilson arbor die blanks for neck/seater made from chamber reamer. I still have small base body from Redding for 6.5x284 Norma.

If I can help let me know

 

[MThuntr]

I thought 6.5-284 Win was SAAMI.
6.5-284 Norma is CIP.

I could have easily switched them around.


I'd say buy the dies that match the reamer used.

 

[old roper 42]

Nosler,Hornady has loading data for 6.5x284 Norma and Peterson,Nosler,Norma,Hornady and Laupa make 6.5x284 Norma brass.

I forgot to add this

6.5x284 Norma - Rifle - Ammo - Graf & Sons

www.grafs.com

 

[Redmt]

There's no telling what reamer was used. I'll give him all the cllected info here. My suggestion is going to be to go with the RCBS and see what they produce vs. the chamber of the rifle. I believe it's a Cooper Rifle that is a few years old but not positive of the vintage.

 

[p_ham]

Double check, but I'm pretty sure redding, rcbs, and hornady bushings are the same dimension.
I know I've got L.E. Wilson, RCBS, and redding bushings that fit my type S die.

 

[std7mag]

The dies are the same for "both" cartridges.
In Europe when there is a change in almost anything, it has to be recertified under a different name.
Norma added some freebore for longer, heavy match bullets and revised the pressures, so hence for CIP, they had to use a different name than 6.5-284 Win.

Same dies, cases, primers, powders, bullets work for either.
Powder charge & COAL are the only thing different.

Same goes for cartridges like 6BR Rem & 6BR Norma.
223 Rem & 223 Wylde.

 

[old roper 42]

There's no telling what reamer was used. I'll give him all the cllected info here. My suggestion is going to be to go with the RCBS and see what they produce vs. the chamber of the rifle. I believe it's a Cooper Rifle that is a few years old but not positive of the vintage.

I think Cooper made 6.5x284 Norma around 2017/2018. I forgot to mention Berger also has data for 6.5x284 Norma. Nosler list Max oal @ 3.228" but load data 2.980" and it's same with Hornady but for 147gr/153gr @3.000".

 

[ImBillT]

There is no official 6.5-284Win. There is an official 284Win SAAMI specification and a person could neck down a 284Win to 6.5mm and call it whatever they want to. Dies had to be custom ordered. With simple wildcats that involve simply necking a case up or down with no other change, if they become popular enough, will often get some support from die manufacturers without going full custom. Similarly to ordering custom dies, typically a custom reamer would have to be ordered. Obviously when doing that you can make your throat, or neck diameter, or lead angle, or anything else for that matter, whatever you want it to be. Folks who don’t know what they’re doing, and especially before everyone had the internet and a computer in their pocket, would often change nothing other than the neck diameter, and in that case, yeah the throat is stupidly short. Similarly to die manufacturers offering production dies for popular cartridges that had no official standard, reamer manufacturers would do the same thing. Depending on the manufacturer and what his most common orders were for, the throat and lead angle may have been changed from a 284Win, or they may not have. Prior to Norma standardizing the cartridge “6.5-284Win” signified that you had necked down a 284Win with no other change. Winchester never had anything to do with the cartridge.

When Norma standardized the cartridge, they made life easy on everyone and only changed the neck diameter, throat length, and lead angle. The chose a very appropriate throat length for modern 6.5mm bullets. The only standardized 284Win necked down to 6.5mm is the 6.5-284Norma. It was specified with CIP rancher than SAAMI.

Get Redding dies.

 

[ImBillT]

The dies are the same for "both" cartridges.
In Europe when there is a change in almost anything, it has to be recertified under a different name.
Norma added some freebore for longer, heavy match bullets and revised the pressures, so hence for CIP, they had to use a different name than 6.5-284 Win.

Same dies, cases, primers, powders, bullets work for either.
Powder charge & COAL are the only thing different.

Same goes for cartridges like 6BR Rem & 6BR Norma.
223 Rem & 223 Wylde.

You slightly misunderstand both SAAMI and CIP. Not only would SAAMI require a new name for a different throat length than the 6BR Remington, I’m not even sure the 6BR Remington was ever an official SAAMI specified cartridge. Early versions were 1.500”, later versions(before Norma spec’d it) were 1.560”. To my knowledge the only “production” rifles chambered for 6BR Remington were Remington 40X rifles, and I’m not sure a 40X counts as “production”. Norma went with the 1.560” spec when they made it official with CIP.

Remington didn’t invent the 6BR. It came about as a use of the 308x1.5”, and benchrest shooters started really using it when they became unable to import Lapua or Sako .220 Russian brass. Benchrest shooters were bushing primer pockets to use small rifle primers in their shortened 308Win brass. Remington began supporting the wildcat, and making brass. They even sold a lot of small rifle primer 308Win brass that just said “BR Rem” on the bottom. No diameter, no “308”. Norma did not invent long throated BRs either. They started getting significant use by competitive shooters not long after Palmisano co-invented the VLD bullet and got a US 300M shooter to shoot a 2” PPC and 105gr VLDs in a match in Sweden in 1986. It wasn’t until 1996 that Norma standardized the long throated BR.


The 223 Wylde is not specified by SAAMI or CIP.

 

[std7mag]

Nor did i ever say that 223 Wylde was SAAMI, or CIP.
Just that you can use the same dies, and components.
As with 6BR Rem & 6BR Norma.

It does seem interesting that 6BR Rem wouldn't be SAAMI, when Remington made factory ammo for it.

 

[old roper 42]

You slightly misunderstand both SAAMI and CIP. Not only would SAAMI require a new name for a different throat length than the 6BR Remington, I’m not even sure the 6BR Remington was ever an official SAAMI specified cartridge. Early versions were 1.500”, later versions(before Norma spec’d it) were 1.560”. To my knowledge the only “production” rifles chambered for 6BR Remington were Remington 40X rifles, and I’m not sure a 40X counts as “production”. Norma went with the 1.560” spec when they made it official with CIP.

Remington didn’t invent the 6BR. It came about as a use of the 308x1.5”, and benchrest shooters started really using it when they became unable to import Lapua or Sako .220 Russian brass. Benchrest shooters were bushing primer pockets to use small rifle primers in their shortened 308Win brass. Remington began supporting the wildcat, and making brass. They even sold a lot of small rifle primer 308Win brass that just said “BR Rem” on the bottom. No diameter, no “308”. Norma did not invent long throated BRs either. They started getting significant use by competitive shooters not long after Palmisano co-invented the VLD bullet and got a US 300M shooter to shoot a 2” PPC and 105gr VLDs in a match in Sweden in 1986. It wasn’t until 1996 that Norma standardized the long throated BR.


The 223 Wylde is not specified by SAAMI or CIP.

I was shooting BR when The Sako 220 Russian case was replaced by lapua 220 Russian case.

The parent case of 220 Russian 7.62x39.

Mike Walker did 7BR and it had small primer pocket.

7mm BR Remington​

I neck down 7br brass for my tight neck 22BR and they also made it in Nickel case.
Other problem you never mention using that 308BR case is rim on ppc is smaller in dia.

 

[ImBillT]

I was shooting BR when The Sako 220 Russian case was replaced by lapua 220 Russian case.

The parent case of 220 Russian 7.62x39.

Mike Walker did 7BR and it had small primer pocket.

7mm BR Remington​

I neck down 7br brass for my tight neck 22BR and they also made it in Nickel case.
Other problem you never mention using that 308BR case is rim on ppc is smaller in dia.

I’d love for you to show me where I said the 6BR was a the equivalent of a 6PPC, or that one could be made from the other, or even mentioned the parent of a 220 Russian. I said the 6BR started getting serious use when the pinch on getting 220 Russian cases occurred. At NO POINT did I say that people were making PPC cases from 308Win brass. Guys were making 6BR cases from 308Win brass. Guys were bushing primer pockets until small rifle primer BR brass was widely available. You don’t need to do anything at all to the rim of a 308Win case to make a BR. It’s not possible to make a PPC case from a 308Win case even if you turned the rim down(which people did to use a 6BR with their PPC boltface), you couldn’t size down the solid portion of the head.

Remington also made “6mm BR” brass which also had small primer pockets. I’m not sure if it ever had large primer pockets, or if all of that brass was made from 308Win brass before the small primer brass came out.

The .308x1.5” had been necked to all different sizes by 1963, and the 6mm version had already become known as the 6mm Benchrest before Remington chambered a rifle for it in 1978. The first “BR” brass Remington made was the small primer 308Win brass with the “BR Rem” headstamp that I took a picture of. The earliest 6mm BR brass from Remington was for a 1.520” chamber, not the 1.560” chamber that ended up in 40X rifles later. Whether they made 7BR brass before 6BR brass I don’t know because apparently both were chambered in 1978. Again, I don’t know if anyone ever made large rifle primer pocket BR brass, but before the small rifle primer BR brass was available, everyone was making brass from cases that had large rifle primers, and if the wanted a small rifle primer, the bushes the pocket.


You might have been shooting BR a long time ago, but you failed to comprehend the information in my post, and didn’t come up with any information contradicting what I said.

 

[old roper 42]

I’d love for you to show me where I said the 6BR was a the equivalent of a 6PPC, or that one could be made from the other, or even mentioned the parent of a 220 Russian. I said the 6BR started getting serious use when the pinch on getting 220 Russian cases occurred. At NO POINT did I say that people were making PPC cases from 308Win brass. Guys were making 6BR cases from 308Win brass. Guys were bushing primer pockets until small rifle primer BR brass was widely available. You don’t need to do anything at all to the rim of a 308Win case to make a BR. It’s not possible to make a PPC case from a 308Win case even if you turned the rim down(which people did to use a 6BR with their PPC boltface), you couldn’t size down the solid portion of the head.

Remington also made “6mm BR” brass which also had small primer pockets. I’m not sure if it ever had large primer pockets, or if all of that brass was made from 308Win brass before the small primer brass came out.

The .308x1.5” had been necked to all different sizes by 1963, and the 6mm version had already become known as the 6mm Benchrest before Remington chambered a rifle for it in 1978. The first “BR” brass Remington made was the small primer 308Win brass with the “BR Rem” headstamp that I took a picture of. The earliest 6mm BR brass from Remington was for a 1.520” chamber, not the 1.560” chamber that ended up in 40X rifles later. Whether they made 7BR brass before 6BR brass I don’t know because apparently both were chambered in 1978. Again, I don’t know if anyone ever made large rifle primer pocket BR brass, but before the small rifle primer BR brass was available, everyone was making brass from cases that had large rifle primers, and if the wanted a small rifle primer, the bushes the pocket.


You might have been shooting BR a long time ago, but you failed to comprehend the information in my post, and didn’t come up with any information contradicting what I said.

"Benchrest shooters were bushing primer pockets to use small rifle primers in their shortened 308Win brass." Your post.

I don't think I misread. Rim dia on Sako 220 Russian/Laupa 220 Russian cases I have is .440"

If your saying it works then you should be able to chamber 6ppc using same bolt. There is different shell holders for each. I'm assuming you shot 6ppc during the change over?
You do have first hand experience with 308 in 6ppc chamber?

I do understand what your talk and did miss any first hand experience with 6ppc you had so please clear that up.

 

[ImBillT]

"Benchrest shooters were bushing primer pockets to use small rifle primers in their shortened 308Win brass." Your post.

I don't think I misread. Rim dia on Sako 220 Russian/Laupa 220 Russian cases I have is .440"

If your saying it works then you should be able to chamber 6ppc using same bolt. There is different shell holders for each. I'm assuming you shot 6ppc during the change over?
You do have first hand experience with 308 in 6ppc chamber?

I do understand what your talk and did miss any first hand experience with 6ppc you had so please clear that up.

They were making 6BR brass from 308Win, not 6PPC brass. Show me ONE PLACE where I said someone was making PPC brass from 308Win? It isn’t there. This was all related to the 6BR gaining popularity when the brass required to make 6PPC was difficult to get your hands on.

 

[ImBillT]

Nor did i ever say that 223 Wylde was SAAMI, or CIP.
Just that you can use the same dies, and components.
As with 6BR Rem & 6BR Norma.

It does seem interesting that 6BR Rem wouldn't be SAAMI, when Remington made factory ammo for it.

I misunderstood. I assumed when you said “Same goes for cartridges like 6BR Rem & 6BR Norma 223 Rem & 223 Wylde.” That “same” included your statement that when anything changed, CIP required a new specification, and that’s why there was the 223 Wylde and 6BR Rem. While they, and SAAMI, would require it to have a different name if the throat length or almost anything else, changed the 223 Wylde isn’t specified by SAAMI, and I’m not sure the 6BR Rem ever was. I can see how you could have meant it differently and that I misunderstood.

As for the 6BR Rem being a SAAMI specified cartridge at one time, I do not know. It is not currently. A cartridge does not have to be listed by SAAMI or CIP for a US manufacturer to chamber it or load ammo for it. Compliance with SAAMI specifications is voluntary. Not that he was a large mainstream manufacturer, but Kenny Jarrett sold the crap out of 280AIs before Nosler ever standardized it with SAAMI, and no those rifles don’t have the chamber that one following the SAAMI spec would have, in fact, unless I’m mistaken, those rifles are chambered .019” longer and shooting factory 280AI ammo in them would be dangerous.

 

[old roper 42]

They were making 6BR brass from 308Win, not 6PPC brass. Show me ONE PLACE where I said someone was making PPC brass from 308Win? It isn’t there. This was all related to the 6BR gaining popularity when the brass required to make 6PPC was difficult to get your hands on.

I gather you didn't making any brass or shooting BR.