.

[ImBillT]

@diethog67

Dispute the numbers I posted or defend your position that we exchange 200,000 firearm defended attempted rapes per year for 47 cases of mistaken identity over the course of seven years.

Heck those numbers could be wrong. I didn’t dig very hard. But go ahead and dispute one or the other.

 

[LopeHunter]

If I am in grizzly country then want to see the guide strapped with spray and a revolver plus maybe a wheel gun in a scabbard. Not as concerned in mountain lion country if are staying near the guide. Same with wolves, bobcats, coyotes or black bears. As for open carry around town, is a bit much as would be carrying a peacock on my shoulder. I do carry concealed. If was carrying a bag of jewels or $$$$$ cash then would open carry but I do not so I do not. No way am carrying a rifle or shotgun into any store as my open carry. My standard is not with a behavior being legal just as I would not lash a buck over my hood to drive through a city. I prefer to not stir up the shit pot, though, as my momma said the stirrer gets to lick the spoon first. I stir up shit but is a mighty good reason for me to do so.

 

[VikingsGuy]

@diethog67

Dispute the numbers I posted or defend your position that we exchange 200,000 firearm defended attempted rapes per year for 47 cases of mistaken identity over the course of seven years.

Heck those numbers could be wrong. I didn’t dig very hard. But go ahead and dispute one or the other.

I am pro-2A for self-defense, but that 200,000 number is from one 1995 study (Kleck) that is under serious question. That suggests that in the 27 years since its publishing that 5,500,000 women have stopped a sexual assault with a firearm yet studies of hospital records, newspaper articles, and police records have found evidence of only about 45,000 cases of self-defense by any gender against any crime during that time window. I would guess the 1995 number is grossly inflated and expect the hospital/police study does undercount, but not 110x. One group repeated the methodology of the 1995 study but instead of asking if a woman used a gun for self-defense, they asked if they had been abducted by aliens and got pretty close to the 200,000 number.

The same 1995 Kleck study claimed 2.5 million firearms self-defense incidents a year across genders - that is over 65 million firearms self-defense incidents since 1995. That suggests over half of gun owners have had such an incident (or a smaller group has had many) in the last 20 years. In my circle of firearm-owning friends (let's say 20 or so) only one has any story in their life about using a gun for self-defense and that was a shotgun in their home.

So again, I am pro-2A and a ccw permit holder, but 27 years of repeating one clearly flawed study that doesn't pass the smell test isn't our best support.

 

[Dirthog67]

If they’re armed, I’m treating them as if they want to kill. The problem with your logic is that A) you presume to know what an armed criminal wants, and B) you’re not addressing what he may decide to do even if no one pulls a gun on him. I don’t care what an armed criminal wants, or an unarmed violent criminal for that matter.

Real numbers. Some from the article you posted. Others from the first article I clicked on in a search for stats. Prove them wrong.

Are you kidding? You sent screen shots with no citing of sources.

My goal is always to prevent bullets from flying around.

You may want to play hero, but that increases the likelihood of someone dying.

Here is one. Victims fighting back against robbers more likely to be injured.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/effects-offender-weapon-use- and-victim-self-defense-robbery

Nothing i own is more valuable than a human life. I have insurance.

 

[Dirthog67]

From the American Journal of Public Health.

People is possession of a gun are 4.46 more likely to be shot than those without.

Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

Objectives. We investigated the possible relationship between being shot in an assault and possession of a gun at the time.Methods. We enrolled 677 case participants that had been shot in an assault and 684 population-based control participants within ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[mtmuley]

From the American Journal of Public Health.

People is possession of a gun are 4.46 more likely to be shot than those without.

Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

Objectives. We investigated the possible relationship between being shot in an assault and possession of a gun at the time.Methods. We enrolled 677 case participants that had been shot in an assault and 684 population-based control participants within ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'll take my chances. Thanks though. mtmuley

 

[HuntTalk Freak]

Most everything I own is more valuable than the life of the person trying to take it, especially if they are armed.

 

[Slm864]

Are you kidding? You sent screen shots with no citing of sources.

My goal is always to prevent bullets from flying around.

You may want to play hero, but that increases the likelihood of someone dying.

Here is one. Victims fighting back against robbers more likely to be injured.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/effects-offender-weapon-use- and-victim-self-defense-robbery

Nothing i own is more valuable than a human life. I have insurance.

Seriously??

@ImBillT was talking about thwarting sexual assault attempts regardless of the numbers and your talking about a robber.
I’m pretty sure someone trying to steal my VHS tapes isn’t going to be of much concern, but someone trying to ass rape me is a lot different. I’m pretty sure I’d rather take the risk and end up dead from attempting to protect myself with my gun than just sit on my hands.

 

[EKYHunter]

I like seeing good guys with guns kill bad guys with guns. I like seeing DV perps, rapists, and child sexual abusers get what’s coming to them. I like seeing folks exercise their 2A rights whether it’s open carry, concealed carry, etc. Heck, a lot of people think fishing is cruel and take offense to fishermen but I’m sure not going to not have my rods on the front deck of my boat just so I don’t hurt their little feelings when I put gas in my boat on the way to the lake.

 

[Dirthog67]

Seriously??

@ImBillT was talking about thwarting sexual assault attempts regardless of the numbers and your talking about a robber.
I’m pretty sure someone trying to steal my VHS tapes isn’t going to be of much concern, but someone trying to ass rape me is a lot different. I’m pretty sure I’d rather take the risk and end up dead from attempting to protect myself with my gun than just sit on my hands.

He was quoting disproven statistics.

I've been sexually assaulted. No way in hell a gun would have stopped him in those circumstances. No time to react. No way to get distance. Probably would have made the situation worse.

I imagine that's the case with most sexual assaults.

Still. Carry your guns but if you decided to pull your gun out in public you make one wrong move and everyone is in way more danger than they were before, so don't #*^@#* up.

I dont trust you not to &^%# up. Sorry, not sorry.

 

[ImBillT]

I am pro-2A for self-defense, but that 200,000 number is from one 1995 study (Kleck) that is under serious question. That suggests that in the 27 years since its publishing that 5,500,000 women have stopped a sexual assault with a firearm yet studies of hospital records, newspaper articles, and police records have found evidence of only about 45,000 cases of self-defense by any gender against any crime during that time window. I would guess the 1995 number is grossly inflated and expect the hospital/police study does undercount, but not 110x. One group repeated the methodology of the 1995 study but instead of asking if a woman used a gun for self-defense, they asked if they had been abducted by aliens and got pretty close to the 200,000 number.

The same 1995 Kleck study claimed 2.5 million firearms self-defense incidents a year across genders - that is over 65 million firearms self-defense incidents since 1995. That suggests over half of gun owners have had such an incident (or a smaller group has had many) in the last 20 years. In my circle of firearm-owning friends (let's say 20 or so) only one has any story in their life about using a gun for self-defense and that was a shotgun in their home.

So again, I am pro-2A and a ccw permit holder, but 27 years of repeating one clearly flawed study that doesn't pass the smell test isn't our best support.

I said I didn’t dig hard. Number disputed. I would love correct numbers. Argument likely still intact. Is the correct number higher than the 47 cases of mistaken identity? I would love to get some more accurate numbers, but I HIGHLY doubt that armed law abiding citizens have harmed more people by trying to help than criminals have harmed intentionally, which is the argument that the guy is trying to make.

I have never carried on my person, only in my vehicle, but the area I work in(a fairly large county with a large city in it) is getting rougher by the day. Ive had a handgun pointed at me by the driver of the vehicle beside me. I’ve witnessed two unarmed robberies, and stopped one of them, I too was unarmed. The second one, I was at my truck, which did have a handgun, that I chose not to draw, and I followed the vehicle until the perpetrator was caught by police. I live in a mostly rural adjacent county, on a highway, on the edge of a town with no police officers, and only four state troopers in the county and have drawn a firearm on two people outside my home. One was was absolutely going to pull something had he not been met with something more than he had bargained for, and the other was terrorizing my female neighbor who called me for help. I’m very much considering starting to carry. Not to interfere with robberies, especially armed robberies, but protect my family’s lives and my own life in this crazy world we live in. When my neighbor’s husband got back to town he told me that he bought her a pistol. The first thing I told him was that if she wasn’t willing to take a life before she even picks up a gun, then she doesn’t need a gun. I don’t mean that you need to be willing to kill to buy a gun and practice with it. I mean that before you pull it in self-defense, or the defense of another, you need to be 100% prepared to kill. It should not be viewed as a de-escalation tool or a bargaining chip. You absolutely up the stakes when you pull a gun in self-defense, and if you’re bluffing it’s a bad call. I’m not going to pull a weapon on a bluff.

 

[Slm864]

He was quoting disproven statistics.

I've been sexually assaulted. No way in hell a gun would have stopped him in those circumstances. No time to react. No way to get distance. Probably would have made the situation worse.

I imagine that's the case with most sexual assaults.

Still. Carry your guns but if you decided to pull your gun out in public you make one wrong move and everyone is in way more danger than they were before, so don't #*^@#* up.

I dont trust you not to #*^@#* up. Sorry, not sorry.

I’m sorry for the unfortunate situation that you went through.

I’m not sorry that I totally disagree with you though. I sure as hell won’t take the suggestion or criticism from someone on the internet to determine my competence with a gun in a situation like that. Like I said, I’ll definitely take my chance.

 

[ImBillT]

He was quoting disproven statistics.

I've been sexually assaulted. No way in hell a gun would have stopped him in those circumstances. No time to react. No way to get distance. Probably would have made the situation worse.

I imagine that's the case with most sexual assaults.

Still. Carry your guns but if you decided to pull your gun out in public you make one wrong move and everyone is in way more danger than they were before, so don't #*^@#* up.

I dont trust you not to #*^@#* up. Sorry, not sorry.

I circled three statistics. There were other statistics on the same page which supported my point. One of the statistics has been disputed, and that’s fine. Can you put any numbers up that actually support your point?

 

[ImBillT]

From the American Journal of Public Health.

People is possession of a gun are 4.46 more likely to be shot than those without.

Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

Objectives. We investigated the possible relationship between being shot in an assault and possession of a gun at the time.Methods. We enrolled 677 case participants that had been shot in an assault and 684 population-based control participants within ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The law abiding citizen being more likely to be shot if he draws a gun than if he allows himself and others to be abused(robbed or whatever) is not the same thing as being a greater danger to those around him than the criminal is, which is the point you were originally making. Don’t shift the goal post.

 

[ImBillT]

Are you kidding? You sent screen shots with no citing of sources.

My goal is always to prevent bullets from flying around.

You may want to play hero, but that increases the likelihood of someone dying.

Here is one. Victims fighting back against robbers more likely to be injured.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/effects-offender-weapon-use- and-victim-self-defense-robbery

Nothing i own is more valuable than a human life. I have insurance.

One of the two screenshots was the very article you posted a link to. I said that at least two of the three times that I posted it.

I told you to dispute the numbers or defend your position. VikingsGuy disputed the numbers with no need for a link. Thank him.

 

[Dirthog67]

Far more 7-11s are robbed than people are shot during a 7-11 robbery.

Robber most likely wants to get out of there asap so he can get his little blue pills to smoke from his dealer.

Now, if he's pointing a gun at someone, I dont give a #*^@#* if you shoot him. You point a gun at someone and it gets you shot, that's on you, so I'm not arguing that nobody should shoot him.

My concern is that as soon as another gun comes out and he sees it all shit is going to break loose. If you pull out your gun, you better be damn sure you can hit him and take him down because if you don't, people are likely to get hurt.

Are you ready to kill a human?

Are you sure where your bullets are going to go? Can you live with yourself if a bullet ends up taking someone outside the store out? A child?

So yeah. If you pull out your gun you just put all the bystanders at a greater risk than before if you #*^@#* up.

As for rape victims, im pretty sure none of you internet tough guys have ever physically fought someone for your life.

Rapists dont knock on your door and say hello sir or ma'am, I'm going to rape you now.

They are people you know, or they jump you or sneak in at night or they drug you. Unless you live your life in a constant state of alert, they can and will catch you off guard.

They have the upper hand. They are all high on adrenaline and maybe drugs, too. They've likely done this before and are pretty confident about it. In the case of women, they are usually physically bigger and stronger.

If you can even get to your gun its going to be a wrestling match. A fight for your life where even if you get a hold of the gun and can pull the trigger where the hell is it aimed? Whats the chances he gets the gun and shoots you? I promise as much as being raped sucks life is still worth living.

You have fun with that if its your jam but saying guns could have or will protected rape victims is untrue most of the time and harmful.

Nothing a victim did do or didn't do caused or could have prevented them being raped. A rapist was looking for a victim and whatever sort of victims that particular rapist was looking for happened to be that particular victim that time.

Some people fight like hell, some people freeze. Either could save your life, you just don't know.

Its nobody's fault except the rapist.

So stop telling women they need to carry guns to protect themselves. If they make that choice on their own, fine. Encourage training, otherwise leave it. It gets into bigger issues about purity and damaged goods that men don't really understand.

Anyway. Im out on this topic.

 

[Shangobango]

I dont trust you not to #*^@#* up. Sorry, not sorry.

The fact that you don’t trust someone to exercise their right has no bearing on their ability to do so.

That’s the breaks…

 

[VikingsGuy]

Far more 7-11s are robbed than people are shot during a 7-11 robbery.

Robber most likely wants to get out of there asap so he can get his little blue pills to smoke from his dealer.

Now, if he's pointing a gun at someone, I dont give a #*^@#* if you shoot him. You point a gun at someone and it gets you shot, that's on you, so I'm not arguing that nobody should shoot him.

My concern is that as soon as another gun comes out and he sees it all shit is going to break loose. If you pull out your gun, you better be damn sure you can hit him and take him down because if you don't, people are likely to get hurt.

Are you ready to kill a human?

Are you sure where your bullets are going to go? Can you live with yourself if a bullet ends up taking someone outside the store out? A child?

So yeah. If you pull out your gun you just put all the bystanders at a greater risk than before if you #*^@#* up.

As for rape victims, im pretty sure none of you internet tough guys have ever physically fought someone for your life.

Rapists dont knock on your door and say hello sir or ma'am, I'm going to rape you now.

They are people you know, or they jump you or sneak in at night or they drug you. Unless you live your life in a constant state of alert, they can and will catch you off guard.

They have the upper hand. They are all high on adrenaline and maybe drugs, too. They've likely done this before and are pretty confident about it. In the case of women, they are usually physically bigger and stronger.

If you can even get to your gun its going to be a wrestling match. A fight for your life where even if you get a hold of the gun and can pull the trigger where the hell is it aimed? Whats the chances he gets the gun and shoots you? I promise as much as being raped sucks life is still worth living.

You have fun with that if its your jam but saying guns could have or will protected rape victims is untrue most of the time and harmful.

Nothing a victim did do or didn't do caused or could have prevented them being raped. A rapist was looking for a victim and whatever sort of victims that particular rapist was looking for happened to be that particular victim that time.

Some people fight like hell, some people freeze. Either could save your life, you just don't know.

Its nobody's fault except the rapist.

So stop telling women they need to carry guns to protect themselves. If they make that choice on their own, fine. Encourage training, otherwise leave it. It gets into bigger issues about purity and damaged goods that men don't really understand.

Anyway. Im out on this topic.

The point is not for us to tell anyone how to address those harrowing situations, but rather, the point is that it is the person’s right to be prepared how they see fit, not the government’s

 

[HuntTalk Freak]

Far more 7-11s are robbed than people are shot during a 7-11 robbery.

Robber most likely wants to get out of there asap so he can get his little blue pills to smoke from his dealer.

Now, if he's pointing a gun at someone, I dont give a #*^@#* if you shoot him. You point a gun at someone and it gets you shot, that's on you, so I'm not arguing that nobody should shoot him.

My concern is that as soon as another gun comes out and he sees it all shit is going to break loose. If you pull out your gun, you better be damn sure you can hit him and take him down because if you don't, people are likely to get hurt.

Are you ready to kill a human?

Are you sure where your bullets are going to go? Can you live with yourself if a bullet ends up taking someone outside the store out? A child?

So yeah. If you pull out your gun you just put all the bystanders at a greater risk than before if you #*^@#* up.

As for rape victims, im pretty sure none of you internet tough guys have ever physically fought someone for your life.

Rapists dont knock on your door and say hello sir or ma'am, I'm going to rape you now.

They are people you know, or they jump you or sneak in at night or they drug you. Unless you live your life in a constant state of alert, they can and will catch you off guard.

They have the upper hand. They are all high on adrenaline and maybe drugs, too. They've likely done this before and are pretty confident about it. In the case of women, they are usually physically bigger and stronger.

If you can even get to your gun its going to be a wrestling match. A fight for your life where even if you get a hold of the gun and can pull the trigger where the hell is it aimed? Whats the chances he gets the gun and shoots you? I promise as much as being raped sucks life is still worth living.

You have fun with that if its your jam but saying guns could have or will protected rape victims is untrue most of the time and harmful.

Nothing a victim did do or didn't do caused or could have prevented them being raped. A rapist was looking for a victim and whatever sort of victims that particular rapist was looking for happened to be that particular victim that time.

Some people fight like hell, some people freeze. Either could save your life, you just don't know.

Its nobody's fault except the rapist.

So stop telling women they need to carry guns to protect themselves. If they make that choice on their own, fine. Encourage training, otherwise leave it. It gets into bigger issues about purity and damaged goods that men don't really understand.

Anyway. Im out on this topic.

Well, bye.

 

[Dirthog67]

The only thing I said about what I thought about the legalities of carrying a weapon in public is that I wished the concealed carry permit required a competency and judgement test. Im sure none of the internet tough guys here would have any trouble passing said test.