2020 Colorado Deer and Elk Non Resident Apps Poll

[Deleted member 28227]

Although the reissue list process may change before August.

Honestly I would love to see CO get rid of refunds altogether and go to a WY style policy. The whole system just exacerbates point creep.

Currently, someone can draw a 5pt tag, scout all summer, not see the animal they want, turn the tag back in and get their points back. Then another person can get the tag off the list and not lose their points. So there are literally hundreds if not thousands of draw tags being hunted each season without taking point holders out of the pool.
How does this not piss everyone off?

 

[Oak]

Honestly I would love to see CO get rid of refunds altogether and go to a WY style policy. The whole system just exacerbates point creep.

Currently, someone can draw a 5pt tag, scout all summer, not see the animal they want, turn the tag back in and get their points back. Then another person can get the tag off the list and not lose their points. So there are literally hundreds if not thousands of draw tags being hunted each season without taking point holders out of the pool.
How does this not piss everyone off?

Easily solved by making the purchase of all antlered/male licenses zero out preference points.* It would likely solve the archery season crowding that is costing bowhunters opportunity.

*Disclaimer: I know this is not a popular idea.

 

[Bluffgruff]

Could just move to "lose your points for all tags purchased that were drawn as first choice in original draw"

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Could just move to "lose your points for all tags purchased that were drawn as first choice in original draw"

That is how it currently works, but you can get them back if you return your tag.

 

[LuketheDog]

Honestly I would love to see CO get rid of refunds altogether and go to a WY style policy. The whole system just exacerbates point creep.

Currently, someone can draw a 5pt tag, scout all summer, not see the animal they want, turn the tag back in and get their points back. Then another person can get the tag off the list and not lose their points. So there are literally hundreds if not thousands of draw tags being hunted each season without taking point holders out of the pool.
How does this not piss everyone off?

I'm all for a WY system. I've always thought CO should establish a penalty for returning a tag, i.e. -50% of your PPs, to keep folks more honest...

 

[LuketheDog]

Covid 19 did not change my plans. My experiences in Colorado, mostly spent in the front range working there. Plus what happened with my job down there and everything afterwords. I also can't justify sending any money to that state since it had turned into California east. I actually havent spent any money in Colorado since June of 2020. I live in wyoming so I if I draw my new mexico tag I'm filling up just south of cheyenne and driving straight through to new mexico. I can be a very vengeful and spiteful individual when properly motivated. I have two points for deer and elk in Colorado and made the decesion to let them just expire.

Hey @wllm1313, are you going to become a cranky expat like this guy when you move to Boston?

 

[Oak]

They provided a little more info about PP applicantsView attachment 136482

If these numbers are true and I’m looking at this right, there are FEWER preference point buyers and 23,206 MORE applicants who picked an elk hunt code as their first choice compared to last year. Not what I expected at all!

This has been bugging me, so I've spent way too much time entering numbers into Excel. The 2019 preference point only app number from CPW in this post is not close to accurate based on the draw recaps posted on the website. If you add up 1st choice PP apps in the recaps you get 259,943, compared to their 221,369 number above. Which makes me wonder if their number above is not PP 1st choice apps, and is truly PP only apps (excluding those that applied for a license 2nd choice). If that's the case, we can't really do any comparisons yet on how many applied for preference points this year vs. last year.

Please tell me if I'm smoking crack here.

 

[Pelican]

That is how it currently works, but you can get them back if you return your tag.

I think he means that if someone returns a tag that could only be drawn by applying 1st choice in the 1st draw, anyone who buys that tag off the leftover list, looses their points also.

Seems reasonable and straightforward to me.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Hey @wllm1313, are you going to become a cranky expat like this guys when you move to Boston?

Oh absolutely, I got a sox hat and I’m working on my soap box speech about how unfair NR tag prices are.

 

[Dsnow9]

Oh absolutely, I got a sox hat and I’m working on my soap box speech about how unfair NR tag prices are.

Your not going to keep a mountain mailing address to keep your DL?

edit: thick thumbed the submit, to pad taking care of parents two weeks a year doesn’t make you a resident

 

[BlakeA]

That is how it currently works, but you can get them back if you return your tag.

It would be interesting to see the stats on the amount of NRs doing this each year. I myself have used this system before although it's not something I enjoyed doing. Sure, you get your points back but eating a $700 elk tag and not gaining a point isn't something I want to be doing often for CO Elk.

 

[LuketheDog]

This has been bugging me, so I've spent way too much time entering numbers into Excel. The 2019 preference point only app number from CPW in this post is not close to accurate based on the draw recaps posted on the website. If you add up 1st choice PP apps in the recaps you get 259,943, compared to their 221,369 number above. Which makes me wonder if their number above is not PP 1st choice apps, and is truly PP only apps (excluding those that applied for a license 2nd choice). If that's the case, we can't really do any comparisons yet on how many applied for preference points this year vs. last year.

Please tell me if I'm smoking crack here.

Come on Oak, it's a blizzard outside and you're quarantined anyway, please get to the bottom of this so I don't have to...

 

[Mattff200]

Hey @wllm1313, are you going to become a cranky expat like this guy when you move to Boston?

I commuted down from cheyenne for work. I'm now in Wyoming full time and I love it. Wyoming offers me everything I wanted when I left the bear coast. I'm truly happy now but still have bad memories from my time in colorado.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

This has been bugging me, so I've spent way too much time entering numbers into Excel. The 2019 preference point only app number from CPW in this post is not close to accurate based on the draw recaps posted on the website. If you add up 1st choice PP apps in the recaps you get 259,943, compared to their 221,369 number above. Which makes me wonder if their number above is not PP 1st choice apps, and is truly PP only apps (excluding those that applied for a license 2nd choice). If that's the case, we can't really do any comparisons yet on how many applied for preference points this year vs. last year.

Please tell me if I'm smoking crack here.

Assuming that post from CPW is correct:
For elk
2019: 203,000 total apps 83,000 pp only
2020: 213,000 apps 70,000 pp only

*rounded

 

[Oak]

Assuming that post from CPW is correct:

2019: 203,000 total apps 83,000 pp only
2020: 213,000 apps 70,000 pp only

*rounded

Those are elk numbers. I'm talking about total app numbers. Their post says that last year there were 221,369 total PP only apps, and 243,501 PP only apps in 2020. My math says that there were 259,943 1st choice PP apps last year.

*Edit: (Those who know me know about my apathy towards elk. I'm far more interested in other species. )

 

[noharleyyet]

Come on Oak, it's a blizzard outside and you're quarantined anyway, please get to the bottom of this so I don't have to...

That's the smart money, mooching Oak's intel has been my tactic since 2004.....

 

[Oak]

Those are elk numbers. I'm talking about total app numbers. Their post says that last year there were 221,369 total PP only apps, and 243,501 PP only apps in 2020. My math says that there were 259,943 1st choice PP apps last year.

*Edit: (Those who know me know about my apathy towards elk. I'm far more interested in other species. )

Another point to make is that if they are showing a substantial increase in total PP apps this year, but a substantial decrease in elk PP apps, then we will see a significant increase in PP apps for other species when the draw recaps come out.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Those are elk numbers. I'm talking about total app numbers. Their post says that last year there were 221,369 total PP only apps, and 243,501 PP only apps in 2020. My math says that there were 259,943 1st choice PP apps last year.

*Edit: (Those who know me know about my apathy towards elk. I'm far more interested in other species. )

Just went through and pulled all the numbers, and I got the same thing 259k pp only apps. The difference between the real number and their number looks similar to pp only apps for pronghorn ?

No you aren't smoking crack.

 

[Desk Pop]

Honestly I would love to see CO get rid of refunds altogether and go to a WY style policy. The whole system just exacerbates point creep.

Currently, someone can draw a 5pt tag, scout all summer, not see the animal they want, turn the tag back in and get their points back. Then another person can get the tag off the list and not lose their points. So there are literally hundreds if not thousands of draw tags being hunted each season without taking point holders out of the pool.
How does this not piss everyone off?

Someone in my party called DPW on this two weeks ago. You do not lose your points, but you do not gain one for the draw if you turn your tag in. This may not seem like a big deal, but for some tags with point creep it can take away future options. It puts them a year behind whatever they were going for. Shit happens, stuff comes up, and they are trying to cater to it. I was once a recipient of a turned back tag in Nevada that was like 3% odds with 10 bonus points squared (what I had). I was pretty stoked and made a good hunt of it. There are two sides to turning back tags. Guy who gives tag back is happy, guy who gets it is happy.

I do like systems that give option of money refund with no points, or no refund and you keep your points. $25 to drop a tag and it will get crazy this year.

 

[cedahm]

If you add up 1st choice PP apps in the recaps you get 259,943, compared to their 221,369 number above. Which makes me wonder if their number above is not PP 1st choice apps, and is truly PP only apps (excluding those that applied for a license 2nd choice). If that's the case, we can't really do any comparisons yet on how many applied for preference points this year vs. last year.

Then, make it more complex by adding in the folks that put in for tags they know they will never draw as 1st choice - which ends up being the same as using the point code (not including Hybrid tags). In a vacuum, I would have said the numbers of people doing this would be statistically insignificant, but I am honestly surprised by how many I have heard of doing this both directly or via social media. Just in my own little 'circle' - there are like 5 guys that put in for non-hybrid high point tags as 1st choice because 'you never know'. The intention (get a point) and the result (got a point) are the same as E-P-999-99-P, but the mechanism is different.

This may not seem like a big deal, but for some tags with point creep it can take away future options. It puts them a year behind whatever they were going for.

Choosing the 'keep your points' option definitely puts them behind at higher levels (in some cases at high point levels, maybe a lot more than 1 year). But guys drawing 1,2,5 point tags are effectively able to 'speculate' with really no repercussions. Especially with deer.

I do like systems that give option of money refund with no points, or no refund and you keep your points. $25 to drop a tag and it will get crazy this year.

That is exactly the option CO's current system gives (the CPW may not have fully answered your buddy's question). And I can't imagine many residents would take the $15-40 net refund over the points so it probably is more prevalent in the NR buckets.

I'd volunteer to help fund some CORA requests for Oak and Wilm to get every single stitch of CO application data and turn you guys loose. I have some really smart consultants on the bench right now too that need something to work on besides more Firm eminence and bullsh*t POV exercises - maybe I'll post it on our internal 'odd jobs' board