You had me at "Accommodation to use crossbow"

[Spahr]

SPDSPappy-

Currently, the best option for you would be to look into the Permit to Modify Archery Equipment (PTMAE). Montana FWP works with several organizations (MBA, TBM, etc,) to make accommodations for individuals with disabilities, and based on what you've stated you definitely seem like someone who would qualify. To the best of my knowledge, they (FWP) have never had an individual disability that they haven't been able to make an adequate accommodation for. I would reach out directly to FWP or potentially one of the other orgs listed with any specific questions you might have and how they might be able to assist you. One potential hurdle I could foresee is if you're not a Montana resident, so I don't want to get your hopes up.

As far as reasoning, I think Montana is unique in the lengthy seasons, as well as certain terrain that would allow crossbows to potentially tilt the odds outside of the fair chase ethic. Which could potentially impact our season length. The slippery slope analogy is often used, and I think enough has been said. I do want to acknowledge your comment about your effective range. I appreciate individuals who know their equipment and personal limitations. Ethics are one of the cornerstones for sportsmen to continue to have a seat at the table and be taken seriously in conservation discussions. While I don't personally agree with crossbows during the archery season, I will not crucify anyone who wants to have a discussion about it.

One of my main concerns are brands like Ravin crossbows advertising their line under the pretense of "meet your new rifle" and specifying in their ads that " A good rifle can consistently punch holes in 3-inch bullseyes at 100 yards. A great crossbow can too." The usage of magnified sites, and rifle like accuracy to that degree, specific areas like the Missouri River breaks would be in jeopardy in my mind. I had a breaks archery tag this year, and while I was unable to get a bull (or cow) within my effective range (30 yards with my recurve), I was able to get within 100 yards on multiple occasions. Just some food for thought.

 

[WIbiggame]

No, crossbows haven't caused issues. Out here in the Midwest, people were against them for a long time too, but with their adoption, the number of deer haven't gone down across the states from their use.

I don't know how you can say this if you have actually looked at the data. Using WI as an example. We had xbows legal over 65yo or a medical reason until 2014. 2014 they made they legal for everyone. Since than conventional harvests have fallen while xbow harvests have SKY ROCKETED. Also total harvest as grown every year since the adapted law to make them legal for all.

With that being said if you truly have a medical need I am all for their use. However, as can been seen in every other state that cracked the door open it won't be long until everyone can use them and the elk and deer wills be affected. You are comparing whitetails in the Midwest to elk mule deer of the west not even a close comparison. Midwest deer herds weren't even affected when the state tried killing them all with the CWD scare of the early 2000s.

This last fall if I could've used an xbow myself and hunting partner would've tagged out the first day on bulls within 20yds. We just could never draw, having a bow already loaded and their wouldve been 2 dead elk. I am certain we aren't the only ones that this would've been the case. The population will be drastically affected by this.
Attached is the breakdown of harvests in WI

 

[SPDSpappy]

It doesn't matter what your range is. Picture this scenario. We decide your right and say it's not so bad for disabled people to use crossbows. A year goes by and the next guys says well I can't hold the crossbow steady enough to shoot a deer so I think my designated helper should be able to help me steady the weapon. This again is only a minor change to the rules so people decide that it is okay. A little later the next guys says even with his helper steadying the weapon he still is physically capable enough to make a good shot so he proposes that the helper be allowed to aim while he pulls the trigger. Another minor change to the rules currently in place so the rules get amended and it is okay. Next concession to come along is that the helper is allowed to control, aim and fire the weapon. My point is again that a line has to be drawn. It's not discrimination that some things require a certain level of physical ability and that it is the hard bricks of life that some are unfortunately excluded. Should we open wilderness trails to motorized travel for those unable to access them via the current rules?

I've heard some of these arguments before. You mean you want to use a recurve instead of a long bow?? A compound bow, no way!!! I could partially see your argument, but did you read the text I copied from the modification form from the FWP website? How are these mods to a compound bow any different than exactly some of what you're referring to? Also, I'm not sure if you've heard about the modification they did w/ Corey's hunt with the sight impaired kid. Are you going to go tell Corey or the other folks involved in the hunt they were unethical?

 

[SPDSpappy]

Sorry to jump in late, but I'm curious why you want to hunt the archery seasons not general? Do you also hunt with firearms?

The idea of hunting a bull during the rut while it's bugling in your face is amazing to me (hasn't happened yet, but I pray it does one day). Try getting one to do that during the regular rifle season (does it happen on extremely rare occaisions, sure, but not like during the primary rut). I hunt with both my crossbow and rifle (and shotgun here in IL for whitetails since rifles aren't allowed). If I really wanted to hunt one during the rut w/ any weapon and had the cash to do it, I could just get a RFW tag in CO... Does that make me an unethical hunter?

 

[SPDSpappy]

SPDSPappy-

Currently, the best option for you would be to look into the Permit to Modify Archery Equipment (PTMAE). Montana FWP works with several organizations (MBA, TBM, etc,) to make accommodations for individuals with disabilities, and based on what you've stated you definitely seem like someone who would qualify. To the best of my knowledge, they (FWP) have never had an individual disability that they haven't been able to make an adequate accommodation for. I would reach out directly to FWP or potentially one of the other orgs listed with any specific questions you might have and how they might be able to assist you. One potential hurdle I could foresee is if you're not a Montana resident, so I don't want to get your hopes up.

I'll have to check those out! I'll also have to find a different person at MT FWP as the person I spoke with earlier this year was of zero assistance. They just said, nope, you can't use a crossbow, so you can't hunt archery here if you're unable to use a regular bow.

As far as reasoning, I think Montana is unique in the lengthy seasons, as well as certain terrain that would allow crossbows to potentially tilt the odds outside of the fair chase ethic. Which could potentially impact our season length. The slippery slope analogy is often used, and I think enough has been said. I do want to acknowledge your comment about your effective range. I appreciate individuals who know their equipment and personal limitations. Ethics are one of the cornerstones for sportsmen to continue to have a seat at the table and be taken seriously in conservation discussions. While I don't personally agree with crossbows during the archery season, I will not crucify anyone who wants to have a discussion about it.

Thank you for your position and appreciation for me trying to be an ethical hunter!!

One of my main concerns are brands like Ravin crossbows advertising their line under the pretense of "meet your new rifle" and specifying in their ads that " A good rifle can consistently punch holes in 3-inch bullseyes at 100 yards. A great crossbow can too." The usage of magnified sites, and rifle like accuracy to that degree, specific areas like the Missouri River breaks would be in jeopardy in my mind. I had a breaks archery tag this year, and while I was unable to get a bull (or cow) within my effective range (30 yards with my recurve), I was able to get within 100 yards on multiple occasions. Just some food for thought.

Yes, a Ravin is accurate at 100 yards. However, if you look at the information online, the lethality/effective hunting range for it isn't any better than a compound bow (from what I've been able to find). I can shoot my 9mm hand gun at a target at 200 yards and hit it, but that doesn't mean it's very effective at that range as it wont have much kinetic energy left at that point.

 

[BuckRut]

I've heard some of these arguments before. You mean you want to use a recurve instead of a long bow?? A compound bow, no way!!! I could partially see your argument, but did you read the text I copied from the modification form from the FWP website? How are these mods to a compound bow any different than exactly some of what you're referring to? Also, I'm not sure if you've heard about the modification they did w/ Corey's hunt with the sight impaired kid. Are you going to go tell Corey or the other folks involved in the hunt they were unethical?

Careful. You are starting to make assumptions. Never said I agreed with the modifications already allowed and also never stated or implied that any of these actions are "unethical". Making special accommodations is a slippery slope and will inevitably draw others to want their own special accommodations. I have the same feelings with the decision to allow lighted knocks. Sure it doesn't change anything about the current dynamic or efficacy of archery equipment but it does open the same can of worms as it blurs the line on "no electronics on the bow".

 

[Ben Lamb]

The idea of hunting a bull during the rut while it's bugling in your face is amazing to me (hasn't happened yet, but I pray it does one day). Try getting one to do that during the regular rifle season (does it happen on extremely rare occaisions, sure, but not like during the primary rut). I hunt with both my crossbow and rifle (and shotgun here in IL for whitetails since rifles aren't allowed). If I really wanted to hunt one during the rut w/ any weapon and had the cash to do it, I could just get a RFW tag in CO... Does that make me an unethical hunter?

I don't think it makes you unethical, but you may want to question why your recreational experience is more important than the long term health of a herd, or what those who live in that state want their game management to look like.

 

[SPDSpappy]

I don't know how you can say this if you have actually looked at the data. Using WI as an example. We had xbows legal over 65yo or a medical reason until 2014. 2014 they made they legal for everyone. Since than conventional harvests have fallen while xbow harvests have SKY ROCKETED. Also total harvest as grown every year since the adapted law to make them legal for all.

With that being said if you truly have a medical need I am all for their use. However, as can been seen in every other state that cracked the door open it won't be long until everyone can use them and the elk and deer wills be affected. You are comparing whitetails in the Midwest to elk mule deer of the west not even a close comparison. Midwest deer herds weren't even affected when the state tried killing them all with the CWD scare of the early 2000s.

This last fall if I could've used an xbow myself and hunting partner would've tagged out the first day on bulls within 20yds. We just could never draw, having a bow already loaded and their wouldve been 2 dead elk. I am certain we aren't the only ones that this would've been the case. The population will be drastically affected by this.
Attached is the breakdown of harvests in WI

From the data across the board in the midwest, the number of crossbow harvests have significnatly gone up, yes. However, look at are the number of compound/recurve/longbow harvests going down. This means people are transitioning. Additionally, hunters are making more accurate shots and are losing less deer than when using the other methods (less gut shots). If crossbows get more folks in the field, this makes for more hunting advocates too.

 

[WIbiggame]

This means people are transitioning.

Thank you! You just made my argument. I have had this discussion with several people and they all the same thing. You are correct people are transitioning and they are ABLE BODY PEOPLE! This is the exact point I was making the door gets cracked open then it gets flooded with everyone using one. And as many others have mentioned the RESOURSE ie animals suffer.

Again you comparing Midwest whitetail herds to elk or mule is not even in the same ball park. A out 2 years of xbow and they would have to substantially drop licenses for these species thus losing hunters.

Additionally, hunters are making more accurate shots and are losing less deer than when using the other methods (less gut shots)

Prove this please because I guarantee you cant. It is an assumption with no data to support it.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Hank wants folks to kill more bulls to get populations within objective.

Fire ‘em up…

 

[WIbiggame]

The idea of hunting a bull during the rut while it's bugling in your face is amazing to me (hasn't happened yet, but I pray it does one day).

Than go with a friend or relative and call for them. There is ALOT more to hunting than killing.

 

[SPDSpappy]

I don't think it makes you unethical, but you may want to question why your recreational experience is more important than the long term health of a herd, or what those who live in that state want their game management to look like.

You're absolutely right about the long term health of the herd being more important! This is why I'm a life member of RMEF!! My argument is allowing for disabled hunters like myself to use a crossbow within the limits/targest set by biologists won't negatively affect the herds.

 

[Ben Lamb]

You're absolutely right about the long term health of the herd being more important! This is why I'm a life member of RMEF!! My argument is allowing for disabled hunters like myself to use a crossbow within the limits/targest set by biologists won't negatively affect the herds.

The limits that they have set are zero after working with archery clubs and disabled advocates to find a common ground that works for both sides. I think if you tried to follow that, rather than force an idea that serious conflict potential, you'd be on track to harvest a bull with modified archery gear. The Montana Bowhunters Association might even have the gear on hand to help you achieve this goal.

RMEF does great work on a lot of issues, good on ya for being a life member!

 

[SPDSpappy]

Thank you! You just made my argument. I have had this discussion with several people and they all the same thing. You are correct people are transitioning and they are ABLE BODY PEOPLE! This is the exact point I was making the door gets cracked open then it gets flooded with everyone using one. And as many others have mentioned the RESOURSE ie animals suffer.

Again you comparing Midwest whitetail herds to elk or mule is not even in the same ball park. A out 2 years of xbow and they would have to substantially drop licenses for these species thus losing hunters.



Prove this please because I guarantee you cant. It is an assumption with no data to support it.

Here's some articles/information to prove some of my points:

Are Crossbows Hurting Deer Numbers?

Is crossbow hunting hurting deer numbers? Here's a look at some statistics that show the impact crossbow hunting has.

www.bowhunting.com

The Crossbow Effect

Will Crossbows Ruin Bowhunting?

The Internal Revenue Service has never wavered in defining crossbows: They’re archery gear, even though the bow sits upon a gunstock and releases each shot with a safety-equipped trigger. Bowhunters and other archers, however, will likely never achieve unanimity on crossbows, in use or by...

www.themeateater.com

 

[SPDSpappy]

The limits that they have set are zero after working with archery clubs and disabled advocates to find a common ground that works for both sides. I think if you tried to follow that, rather than force an idea that serious conflict potential, you'd be on track to harvest a bull with modified archery gear. The Montana Bowhunters Association might even have the gear on hand to help you achieve this goal.

RMEF does great work on a lot of issues, good on ya for being a life member!

Thanks for mentioning the MBA! I did a search for them on Google and they have an entire page for disabled bow hunters!!

Bowhunting with Disabilities in Montana - Montana Bowhunters Association

History of Bowhunting in Montana The first bowhunters of Montana were the Native Americans.They proved the efficacy of archery equipment by hunting small and big game alike, from fish to bison. Many advocates for bowhunting have followed, chief among them the Montana Bowhunters Association...

mtba.org

 

[BuckRut]

@SPDSpappy have you tried using a Canon 35mm? I believe they are allowed under the current rules and regulations. Not trying to be a dick but we cannot make accommodations for every disability knows to man or hunting is just not going to be hunting anymore.

 

[WyoDoug]

I myself have had three different surgeries, two for torn rotatator cuff injuries and once when I completely severed my upper biceps tendon and partially severed the lower one. Since then I have trouble going to full draw with my compound bow and had to have it adjusted down which limits range. I now have a crossbow I am going to use for elk and possibly deer this year. I will be hunting in Wyoming but many people don't have a real clue about crossbows. Some think they have the range of a rifle. They don't. I will not take shots outside 100 yards with mine. I have tested mine to 200 yards but not yet confident in those shots to take them on live game.

 

[Mudranger1]

. A out 2 years of xbow and they would have to substantially drop licenses for these species thus losing hunters.

I hate getting involved in these threads ...oh how the elk have been wiped out of Wyoming and licenses dropped since legalizing crossbows I don't care either way but this argument always makes me smile

 

[WIbiggame]

I hate getting involved in these threads ...oh how the elk have been wiped out of Wyoming and licenses dropped since legalizing crossbows I don't care either way but this argument always makes me smile

Again not even a close argument. Wyoming issues far less NR tags and has less resident hunters. Also their archery season is 29 days long Montana's is 47+/-.

 

[Mudranger1]

Again not even a close argument. Wyoming issues far less NR tags and has less resident hunters. Also their archery season is 29 days long Montana's is 47+/-.

It's the same you just choose it not to be ...Wyoming total archery success rate 10.5% for the year 2020. Hmmm Colorado 10% for 2020