You Can't Fix Stupid - $87,000,000 California Lion "Crossing"

I skimmed through the six pages, as it was obvious going the typical direction. I can see the anger with spending that much money on this particular issue compared to the mountain of other problems CA must deal with. Hopefully in this time of budget surplus additional funds go toward issues I believe should take priority. Ca is not running out of lions, bears, or bobcats anytime soon. Water and habitat may be a different story
 
Raise your hand if this is what you would do with $87,000,000 if you were given it for any conservation project(s).
If I was given $87M for any project likely no, but a key point should be made that the $87M raised, was raised and earmarked for this sole project.

People didn't just give money, they gave money for this project.
 
Nick, first, I'll try to be more polite. Second, there's not going to be a guard at the gate only letting lions pass. It seems like you're so hung up on California's anti predator hunting that it's skewing something I see as completely separate in their wildlife conservation projects. Who care's they call it, how they market it, it's still going to benefit all wildlife. In fact you could argue that based on the existing wildlife crossings we have, cougars are going to be the least benefited by it, so call it a deer crossing then.

Would you object to Montana installing a wildlife overpass over I-90 Homestake pass if they called it a grizzly crossing? Even if we all recognized all of the other wildlife that would benefit, but acknowledging that we could get it privately funded by marketing it that way.

87 mil in Cali for an 8-lane wildlife crossing, over an exceptionally busy road is not crazy. I'm sorry that your career has kept you in the dark on transportation costs. Take a look at the projects proposed in that area by Caltrans. https://dot.ca.gov/caltrans-near-me/district-7 multiple 1 bil plus projects. Here's one for a bit of pavement and some off ramps improvements: http://my5la.com/i-5-north/ 1.3 bil.

I genuinely don't think people grasp how much money large transportation projects costs, especially in high population areas.

Also, I know you like to point out that this is more than the entire WYGD budget, but instead think about it on a per capita basis, or on state revenue gdp.
 
I think some are missing my position...and the original post was more lighthearted than some are making it. I think some see conservation and money in the same sentence and automatically think it is the best use of money. There is a difference in "is it good," vs "is this the best use for the money, or even close to the best use."

I don't think anyone is arguing that game crossings are bad. Or that spending money on conservation is bad. But that is the argument of those attacking me. "Look, this may help lion genetics so it is good."

My position is that I believe there are better ways to spend the money. It isn't my money, and it isn't my state, but people are pretty blind if they don't see that California is the crystal ball in which sportsmen see what route, methods, strategies and techniques will be used in other states later.

They are playing the long game. Most hunters are just worried about their next deer tag. Sinking huge amounts of conservation money into things a very limited upside is a great strategy for the other side, but that really isn't why I opened the thread at all. Also, do you notice that the greenies always start with the big predators?

Here is a better way to communicate my thoughts: Is this the best use of conservation money? Is this the type of project that is so needed it is worth $87,000,000? This is a another way to frame it: Is there anyone on this forum that was given $87,000,000 to spend on any conservation project(s) that would say, "yep, I choose to put it all to the lion bridge."

If so, we can agree to disagree and that's fine.

I hate the argument that $87,000,000 isn't that much money. It is. As someone pointed out, the entire Wyoming Fish and Game annual budget is about $81,000,000. I know there are various means these projects are paid for (privately in this case, DOT, etc) but for the sake of argument, would any western hunting state resident be ok with their F&G dept completely shutting down everything else they do for an entire year to fund a lion bridge like this in their post populous city?

Again, if so, good for you, but to say, "crossings are good so therefore this is a GOOD USE or THE BEST USE of conservation money," seems like a stretch to me personally, but that's why it is considered an opinion.

This is why arguing it will help is a poor argument. Of course it will help something (even though I personally don't believe it will save them from extinction.) Money is finite. Conservation projects are finite.

Raise your hand if this is what you would do with $87,000,000 if you were given it for any conservation project(s).
I get your angle. And recognize that even if it’s small spuds in infrastructure spending, it’s a whole lot of money.

Bottom line is that the science community has been pointing out that these cats are stuck in a small, fragmented habit with a small gene pool for a while. A group of folks were sympathetic to this and worked hard to raise the cash from organizations like Annenberg to get the bridge built. It’s honestly kind of amazing to see what kind of cash was able to be raised for this project. CalTrans certainly couldn’t afford to implement on their own.

Apples to oranges on this project’s budget and WYFG’s. Two totally different entities and funding streams. And, it’s largely WYDOT that would be funding any bridges in that state, not WYFG.

An upside could be, if this project is successful and popular, state DOTs could become more apt to start building more wildlife bridges in the Rockies where they’re needed. Montana has been terrible at this (look for recent series on Montana Free Press). There is a nice chunk of change in the federal infrastructure bill set aside to perform these kinds of projects in states that haven’t always prioritized them. Heck, maybe a group in the Rockies could get some of the new wealthy folks that buy up land in the Rockies to sign a check and help fund things. Like Ben stated though, and I’m of the same opinion, marketing these projects to wealthy benefactors is going to get more traction if they’re billed as being beneficial to some charismatic megafauna that’s “imperiled” (think griz crossing, woof crossing), instead of being mostly beneficial to animals that hunters like. Also, I get the California does a bunch of weird stuff that could become precedent elsewhere. These bridges are an example of one thing I’d welcome them exporting to the Rockies.

As for whether lions will cross or not? My former neighbor is one of the preeminent roadway ecologists in the country, he says these crossings are only as good as the fences they build to guide animals there. Hopefully this is accounted for, cause they’re really hemmed in otherwise. (See attached image for location of crossing and undeveloped land nearby)

If I had that money for conservation projects I’d be translocating central and eastern MT private land elk to public land within an hour of where I live (I jest).

Hope I haven’t come across as a jerk on this thread.

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But I do this to make a point…people really like to sit on the sidelines and second-guess what the folks working on these issues are doing. It’s very easy to do that when you have the luxury of superficial knowledge and only having to consider one piece of a complex issue. Not singling anyone out here..just a general observation that can be made about most wildlife management topics. But what I have learned to be true so far…if I think the solution is simple, I don’t really understand the problem.
I appreciate your input in topics of this nature. There seems to be the two camps on here, one that immediately jumps to attack agency/government decisions and the defenders. I think this topic is fine for debate, but I disagree with the above generalization. I think we should question decisions and actions of this nature. Right or wrong we are citizens, not subjects that should shut up and accept what the "officials" tell us.
I see what you're saying on this particular issue, but Ca has a history of making "wildlife management" decisions and prioritizing based on things other than science or wildlife management.
 
I appreciate your input in topics of this nature. There seems to be the two camps on here, one that immediately jumps to attack agency/government decisions and the defenders. I think this topic is fine for debate, but I disagree with the above generalization. I think we should question decisions and actions of this nature. Right or wrong we are citizens, not subjects that should shut up and accept what the "officials" tell us.
I see what you're saying on this particular issue, but Ca has a history of making "wildlife management" decisions and prioritizing based on things other than science or wildlife management.

Healthy debate is the hallmark of a solid democratic republic. @Hunting Wife certainly doesn't need anyone to defend her, so I won't. She'll be able to cite the chapter & verse much better than any one else.

I just want to reinforce that regardless of how people talk to each other, being polite and kind is always the best option. I certainly fail to do so myself, but I'm like Will Smith, a work in progress. Citizens do have an obligation to be involved in issues relative to gov't. I haven't seen anyone say "shut up and accept it" but simply offer facts and opinions like others. Some folks like to verbally joust, others don't.

I think if you look at any state right now, you'll see a lot of distrust with the politicians and administrators regardless of who is in control of the Governor's seat or legislature. It's sport to complain about wildlife management, like basketball in the winter & making fun of my backcast in the summer. CA isn't the only place where dumb sh*t passes as an everyday occurrence.
 
I was in San Jose and saw all the homeless people camped under the cloverleafs there. Perhaps they could increase the the cougar population enough that they would start eating all the homeless people. Maybe Ca.is smarter than you think.
 
Saw no safe routes built for the homeless there. My daughter was going to work one morning and two homeless people were fighting in the road.Traffic was backed up all the way down the ramp!
 
San Francisco is helping the homeless. They have two full time employees scooping up human feces. I think they make $80,000. Husband and wife team could make $160,000 a year. Not bad excep a house would cost them $2,000,000 and they’d be talking about the same shit every night.
 
California bashing aside I think what we have here are people who mostly all claim to be conservationist but reside in two different camps with two different Ideas of what wildlife conservation means. One camp feels that wildlife should be managed for maximum exploitation, i.e., hunting. With biodiversity being a secondary goal. The other feels that wildlife should be managed to maintain as natural an environment as possible given the irreparable damage done by a horribly destructive invasive species, i.e., us. With hunting opportunities as a secondary goal. I fall into the latter group.

IdahoNick, you keep insisting that the cougars in California must be managed by hunting. I don't hunt cougars, but I always have a cougar tag in my wallet just in case I get a chance to shoot one while hunting something else. I would love to get a cougar. But hunting by people is not necessary for managing the cougar population, nature can handle it. Management of cougars could be very successful in California if it included hunting and it would be a great benefit to California hunters but not at all necessary. Yes, the deer population has gone down with the rise of the cougar population but still it is humans that are responsible for far more of the deer mortality than cougars, so why is the cougars that must be managed rather than the humans? Building wildlife crossings have been proven to be a very effective way of managing human impact on wildlife populations.

Several years ago, I was spent two months working along the upper reaches of the South Umpqua River here in Southern Oregon. At the same time the wildlife department was doing a cougar study in the Jackson Creek drainage in that same area. They were using hounds to capture and tag the cats. Five years later I was back working in the area when on a miserable rainy day we got a flat tire. Of course since it was the worst weather to change a tire in, one of the lug nuts was so tight it might have just as well been welded on. When who should show up but the hounds man from that study. He didn't stop to help, just stopped to watch the government workers struggle. We got to talking and he said they were back in there to recapture as many cats as possible for the study. He said they had tagged 130 cats. I thought that was a horribly high amount given the size of the area being studied but that is what it was. He said that on this go around they had been trying for six weeks and had not treed one cougar. The dogs hadn't even picked up a scent. A virus had gone through and wiped them out. I had already noticed that everywhere I had been in the last couple of years that there was far less sign of cougars but hadn't really given it much thought. Now it seems I see cougar sign every time I leave town so they seem to have had a comeback. Even 1/4 mile from my house is see tracks. So it looks like maybe nature knows what it is doing.

Sorry for being so long winded but the doc insists that I rest my knee, so I am bored as hell.
I agree with you on the 2 different viewpoints. That is a very accurate observation I think. I view it mostly but not entirely from the idea of maximizing consumptive use. Not because I really want to kill a lot more animals in my life but that model most closely aligns with the North American wildlife model. It’s been wildly successful and look at the increase in deer and elk since we implemented it. Predators numbers have done fine under this model as well. I have hunted lions for decades with hounds in Idaho. We tree a lot of lions but don’t shoot very many. I actually feel like Idaho needs to be more restrictive on lion harvest and should reduce the harvest and shorten our seasons. The op, Idaho Nick also agrees with this according to his post. I only mention this because when someone opposes a pro predator proposal I think we immediately get dismissed as being of the mindset “the only good predator is a dead predator”.For me nothing could be further from the truth. Back to California. They still kill lions and according to their website it’s an average of 150 cats per year. I’m assuming these are well paid(tax payer funded) fish and wildlife employees. They destroy every part of that cat including crushing the skull. Instead they could just allow hunting where the lion would actually be used and raise money for the state to fund conservation and management of lions. The insanity starts there and it has spread to Oregon and Washington with bans on the use of dogs. The nawm works because hunters pay for conservation of a species by purchasing hunting licenses. Nature will find a balance through disease etc but to what benefit? With all the habitat problems California has I feel like it’s extremely deceptive to raise this amount of money for an animal that is thriving all over the state. It’s private funded so we should feel good about this ? The California lion population has increased 10 times last 100 years and the deer have declined from over 2 million to less than 500,000. There high end lion population estimate is more than the estimated population of Tule elk. I don’t see how anyone could argue this is the best use of these funds. Anyways your observation on the two camps is very accurate. I wanted to share the other side. The nawm has worked wonders for almost 100 years. should we fix it till it’s broke?


Overpopulation of predators breaks the nawm.
 
Perhaps the overpass is really being built to help illegal aliens have a safer trip north to do landscaping. They pay landscapers $15 dollars an hour to mow their grass. Mountain View Ca. allows landscapers(illegal aliens) to park 24 hours on a street and then they have to move. Houses in Mountain View cost close to $2,000,000. There are houses available where I live for under $150,000 and we pay landscapers $15 dollars an hour. But then we’re not a ”sanctuary” city.
 
I agree with you on the 2 different viewpoints. That is a very accurate observation I think. I view it mostly but not entirely from the idea of maximizing consumptive use. Not because I really want to kill a lot more animals in my life but that model most closely aligns with the North American wildlife model. It’s been wildly successful and look at the increase in deer and elk since we implemented it. Predators numbers have done fine under this model as well. I have hunted lions for decades with hounds in Idaho. We tree a lot of lions but don’t shoot very many. I actually feel like Idaho needs to be more restrictive on lion harvest and should reduce the harvest and shorten our seasons. The op, Idaho Nick also agrees with this according to his post. I only mention this because when someone opposes a pro predator proposal I think we immediately get dismissed as being of the mindset “the only good predator is a dead predator”.For me nothing could be further from the truth. Back to California. They still kill lions and according to their website it’s an average of 150 cats per year. I’m assuming these are well paid(tax payer funded) fish and wildlife employees. They destroy every part of that cat including crushing the skull. Instead they could just allow hunting where the lion would actually be used and raise money for the state to fund conservation and management of lions. The insanity starts there and it has spread to Oregon and Washington with bans on the use of dogs. The nawm works because hunters pay for conservation of a species by purchasing hunting licenses. Nature will find a balance through disease etc but to what benefit? With all the habitat problems California has I feel like it’s extremely deceptive to raise this amount of money for an animal that is thriving all over the state. It’s private funded so we should feel good about this ? The California lion population has increased 10 times last 100 years and the deer have declined from over 2 million to less than 500,000. There high end lion population estimate is more than the estimated population of Tule elk. I don’t see how anyone could argue this is the best use of these funds. Anyways your observation on the two camps is very accurate. I wanted to share the other side. The nawm has worked wonders for almost 100 years. should we fix it till it’s broke?


Overpopulation of predators breaks the nawm.
My views have changed over the years, I used to be more in favor of a disproportionate amount of deer and elk because that is what I liked to hunt and the more there were the easier it was to hunt. I hope I don't appear intolerant of opposing opinions. I try to avoid tunnel vision on any topic. I remember reacting in total disbelief when I so an interview with an elephant protection activist. The interviewer mentioned the North American Model and suggested that regulated hunting might benefit the elephants. He actually said " I would rather see elephants go extinct than see one killed by a hunter" I guess something happens to one's brain when they get to passionate about a cause.
 
The California lion population has increased 10 times last 100 years and the deer have declined from over 2 million to less than 500,000. There high end lion population estimate is more than the estimated population of Tule elk. I don’t see how anyone could argue this is the best use of these funds. Anyways your observation on the two camps is very accurate. I wanted to share the other side. The nawm has worked wonders for almost 100 years. should we fix it till it’s broke?

Where are you getting that the lion population has increased 10x in 100 years? You've stated it several times, as you assuming 400-600 lions a hundred years ago, or is there a report out there?

As for the deer decline, here's a follow up to your graph yesterday with a bit of a more complete picture. It is often stated we lost mountain lion hunting in 1990 with prop 117. That is untrue. In 1971 then Governor Reagan went full Hollywood (as a nice follow up to anti-gun/racist signing of the Mulford Act....yes, that's a red herring) and signed a moratorium to ban hunting of mountain lions. You say "we could just allow hunting of lions", in theory yes, but in practicality it's never going to happen because it's going to take a 4/5ths vote. Believe me, I'd be dropping hundreds of dollars if there was an option for a draw or fundraising tag, but it isn't an option that can even be considered.



California Population 2016_2 (1).jpg

With respect to our deer population crash, it happened when sport hunting and bounty programs were in place. That crash has been documented to be far more closely link towards exploding population growth in CA.

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Since elk have been brought up a couple of times in this discussion it should probably be noted that lions aren't to blame for the current elk numbers, it's largely landowners who don't want elk. The CDFW certainly has challenges, but what they have done with tule elk is pretty fricken remarkable.....but why does the word "conflict" show up 547 times in the elk management plan. We could have a lot more elk, if we just had a place to put them.

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I too believe the NAMWC is pretty much gospel, and know the user pay model works. This project is just a privately funded user pay model, and is 100% the best use of funds because it was the intent of the funds. When I give to the "Give a Lamb a Drink" program at the CA WSF, I know my funds are being put towards the intended use.
 

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