Wyoming joins the elk wars

[WYexile]

Dang I like to hunt, I like hunters, I like to talk about hunting, only reason I’m here. Appreciate your points, but the approach makes me want to share:

When my daughter was a teenager, I told her to wait until she was in a better mood to engage folks when she thought they were wrong, or was unable to appreciate a view counter to her own; but most especially when she felt she needed to be “right” or “heard.”

she thanked me for that advice later; and said the only time she didn’t follow it was in person, when it mattered. ( Not behind a keyboard when it didn’t ). Has served her well.

Pretty new to forums, hope you’re in a better mood next time we cross paths. If not, I won’t pause again

I’m so new to this,

Dang I like to hunt, I like hunters, I like to talk about hunting, only reason I’m here. Appreciate your points, but the approach makes me want to share:

When my daughter was a teenager, I told her to wait until she was in a better mood to engage folks when she thought they were wrong, or was unable to appreciate a view counter to her own; but most especially when she felt she needed to be “right” or “heard.”

she thanked me for that advice later; and said the only time she didn’t follow it was in person, when it mattered. ( Not behind a keyboard when it didn’t ). Has served her well.

Pretty new to forums, hope you’re in a better mood next time we cross paths. If not, I won’t pause again

new to this - the above was a reply to buzzed

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

I know of one landowner who got out of the HMA program because too many hunters not following the rules. It wasn't because he doesn't want hunters on his place, as he still allows access if people just ask.

And Buzz won't change.

 

[WYexile]

I know of one landowner who got out of the HMA program because too many hunters not following the rules. It wasn't because he doesn't want hunters on his place, as he still allows access if people just ask.

And Buzz won't change.

Carl -

Only takes a bad apple or two.

I’m new to this forum , but it seems like landowners are lumped into a one category; my experience (wyoming ranch raised) is there are two big categories:

Outside big dollar dudes buying big parcels for their own enjoyment; and multi generational ranching families who make their living from the land.

The ranching families are decreasing - can’t keep up with the taxes (property/inheritance) that the outside money inflates.

Those ranching families traditionally allowed a good deal of access (there’s still an outstanding example in area 6; they allow tremendous amount of access to hunters to look at elk across the fence on the rich guys places; then feed the elk instead of their cattle when the season is closed)

Tough dilemma for the ranchers, hunters, GF, the state for sure.

Used to be hunters and landowners where partners, usually life long friends who could pitch in at the branding, dig some post holes together, and haze off the few bad characters who give hunters a bad name.

Maybe times have changed and there’s no bad characters as buzzed suggests; now we just have just rich landowners and good typers

 

[BuzzH]

Carl -

Only takes a bad apple or two.

I’m new to this forum , but it seems like landowners are lumped into a one category; my experience (wyoming ranch raised) is there are two big categories:

Outside big dollar dudes buying big parcels for their own enjoyment; and multi generational ranching families who make their living from the land.

The ranching families are decreasing - can’t keep up with the taxes (property/inheritance) that the outside money inflates.

Those ranching families traditionally allowed a good deal of access (there’s still an outstanding example in area 6; they allow tremendous amount of access to hunters to look at elk across the fence on the rich guys places; then feed the elk instead of their cattle when the season is closed)

Tough dilemma for the ranchers, hunters, GF, the state for sure.

Used to be hunters and landowners where partners, usually life long friends who could pitch in at the branding, dig some post holes together, and haze off the few bad characters who give hunters a bad name.

Maybe times have changed and there’s no bad characters as buzzed suggests; now we just have just rich landowners and good typers

So where were you when a bunch of vandalism on muddy mountain happened a few years back, that was not done by hunters? There wasn't even an open hunting season when it happened.

But, take a guess who did step up and raise money to pay the landowners for the vandalism? The reason @JM77 and I raised the money is because that particular landowner allows a ton of hunting access. We didn't want to lose it.

It's sure funny how you dont want to lump landowners into one group, but you're quite happy to paint hunters as a bunch of mouth breathers flinging trash all over the place, tearing the shit out of roads for fun, shooting cattle, and leaving gates open.

As far as those elk in 6 go, it shouldn't be 2 landowners complaining that start the discussion about these draconian ideas of shooting elk from a helicopter and leaving them to rot. The legislature should stay the hell out of it, and the department should get off their ass and go to work.

But, I can tell you right now, there is going to be legislation introduced to allow the slaughter if those elk. I can also tell you who the department is going to lean on to fight off that bullshit.

I'm inclined to tell them no, fire up the checkbook, pay for that helicopter, and let the good times roll.

The complacent hunters in Wyoming don't seem to mind that the department and legislature want to piss all over the north American model. The model they claim to care about when it's convenient, but ignore when a landowner or two complain about too many elk.

Oh, and the legislation they'll likely pursue will probably be to kill elk from the choppers on anybody's land they want.

I guess property rights are held in the same regard as the north American model, only when it's convenient.

I think it's time to just let the chips fall. Let the department and landowners aerial gun elk and leave them to rot. Maybe even classify elk as predators in unit 6, no tag required and 365 day season.

I mean what other options are there? Hunters are just fence busting, cow shooting, road destroying, littering assholes that can't be trusted.

 

[JM77]

I know of one landowner who got out of the HMA program because too many hunters not following the rules. It wasn't because he doesn't want hunters on his place, as he still allows access if people just ask.

And Buzz won't change.

I'm going to bet with better than even chances there was either a misunderstanding or the landowner prefers his own methods to grant access. I can't think of any HMAs I am familiar with or have heard about, that had multiple hunter issues. A bad apple can appear anywhere, including on the landowner side. G&F takes pretty good care of access granted through Access Yes.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

I'm going to bet with better than even chances there was either a misunderstanding or the landowner prefers his own methods to grant access. I can't think of any HMAs I am familiar with or have heard about, that had multiple hunter issues. A bad apple can appear anywhere, including on the landowner side. G&F takes pretty good care of access granted through Access Yes.

Could be. I'm just regurgitating what the landowner told me.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Why kill them? Relocate them to states where they have been extirpated. There are lots of conservation groups that would help cover the costs. People in NC, TN, WV, SC among others would love to have an elk season.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Why kill them? Relocate them to states where they have been extirpated. There are lots of conservation groups that would help cover the costs. People in NC, TN, WV, SC among others would love to have an elk season.

Transplants are tricky thanks to CWD and brucellosis. No state vet is going to allow animals that aren't certified disease free to come in to their states, and you cannot test live animals for CWD (unless that's changed in the last couple of months).

It's funny to me that we fall back into the tired old rhetoric about how landowners just need to open their properties up instead of hoarding elk for themselves, and that hunters are slobs always drop trou at the open gate and leave prairie blossoms all over.

We tend to focus on the farthest flank to define our opposite ideology rather than listen empathetically to each other. MT tried the route of "you gotta open access up" and it didn't work. When we changed that rhetoric to "how can we be helpful in solving elk distribution issues," we ended up in a much more fruitful place.

Talking to HMA landowners, of course they're going to be overwhelmingly in support of the program, because it works for them. Same goes for landowners who respond to the FWP surveys about block management. When we seek to just confirm our own bias, we miss the opportunity to listen to those we disagree with and learn what they're actually trying to day.

Cse in point: Wylie Galt, former speaker of the House, rancher & guy who is outfitted, used to stand up and say "I'm sick and tired of these hunters." That always hit poorly with the hunting community until one day it clicked with a number of folks - we're tired of us as well.

Long seasons, massive pressure, unrelenting drive to kill any elk, etc, are likely the largest contributing factor in how elk use the landscape outside of habitat influences. Landownership and the change away from family/resident owners back to landed gentry from another location are also massive contributing factors. If hunters and landowners can find a path forward, together and leave the small ball stuff off of the table, then I think you can see some lasting forward momentum.

I have zero doubts that everything @BuzzH says is true. Same goes for the landowners who are voicing similar complaints across the swath of the nation occupied by elk. With growing herds, problems increase. That's also an opportunity to change the paradigm and work together to find better outcomes.

Or, you, know - grab the SAW and:

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Transplants are tricky thanks to CWD and brucellosis. No state vet is going to allow animals that aren't certified disease free to come in to their states, and you cannot test live animals for CWD (unless that's changed in the last couple of months).

It's funny to me that we fall back into the tired old rhetoric about how landowners just need to open their properties up instead of hoarding elk for themselves, and that hunters are slobs always drop trou at the open gate and leave prairie blossoms all over.

We tend to focus on the farthest flank to define our opposite ideology rather than listen empathetically to each other. MT tried the route of "you gotta open access up" and it didn't work. When we changed that rhetoric to "how can we be helpful in solving elk distribution issues," we ended up in a much more fruitful place.

Talking to HMA landowners, of course they're going to be overwhelmingly in support of the program, because it works for them. Same goes for landowners who respond to the FWP surveys about block management. When we seek to just confirm our own bias, we miss the opportunity to listen to those we disagree with and learn what they're actually trying to day.

Cse in point: Wylie Galt, former speaker of the House, rancher & guy who is outfitted, used to stand up and say "I'm sick and tired of these hunters." That always hit poorly with the hunting community until one day it clicked with a number of folks - we're tired of us as well.

Long seasons, massive pressure, unrelenting drive to kill any elk, etc, are likely the largest contributing factor in how elk use the landscape outside of habitat influences. Landownership and the change away from family/resident owners back to landed gentry from another location are also massive contributing factors. If hunters and landowners can find a path forward, together and leave the small ball stuff off of the table, then I think you can see some lasting forward momentum.

I have zero doubts that everything @BuzzH says is true. Same goes for the landowners who are voicing similar complaints across the swath of the nation occupied by elk. With growing herds, problems increase. That's also an opportunity to change the paradigm and work together to find better outcomes.

Or, you, know - grab the SAW and:

Every now and then you say something that doesn't want to make me vomit. Nicely done!

 

[Ben Lamb]

Every now and then you say something that doesn't want to make me vomit. Nicely done!

 

[88man]

Not all ranchers are rich out of staters just buying a tax write off. There are actual working ranches that need to watch their bottom line and make a profit. The value of your land doesn't mean much if you have no intention of selling it. The distain for private land owners is pretty evident on this board. No wonder they don't want to open their land to the masses.

Well said, why would anyone let someone on their place when the board for public land hunters constantly trashes private ranch owners, its a common theme on here and with lots of other folks. There are lots and lots of great people who own ground and don't want strangers on it. It simply doesn't matter if they are dirt broke and land rich or if they are extremely wealthy. People cause lots of problems and the ranchers and or their management feel more comfortable solving their particular elk issues and opportunities with out the help of strangers.

 

[TheTone]

Well said, why would anyone let someone on their place when the board for public land hunters constantly trashes private ranch owners, its a common theme on here and with lots of other folks. There are lots and lots of great people who own ground and don't want strangers on it. It simply doesn't matter if they are dirt broke and land rich or if they are extremely wealthy. People cause lots of problems and the ranchers and or their management feel more comfortable solving their particular elk issues and opportunities with out the help of strangers.

So the solution is complain to the legislature and propose to shoot elk out of a helicopter and be able to leave them lay?

I don’t think people necessarily trash private landowners here, they do get a little bent about landowners that want control over public resources and seek to change well established wildlife law and policy. Without question the vast majority of my deer hunting has been done on private; I’m thankful for the opportunities I’ve had

 

[SaskHunter]

Well said, why would anyone let someone on their place when the board for public land hunters constantly trashes private ranch owners, its a common theme on here and with lots of other folks.

First of all, I trash talk everyone equally.

 

[WYOMULE]

I am sympathetic with the ranchers to a point but the answer is so simple and even Utah gets it a bit right. Transferable depredation tags the landowner can charge a trespass or sale fee on. The demand is there. Every year the job reports talk about game and fishculling elk who won’t leave private property in western wyoming.

Seems allowing the landowners and hunters to profit while saving state resources benefits everyone.

If they want to get to objective why not allow late youth tags on the boundaries of the feed grounds too.

Being above objective is a nice problem too have and is easily solvable. Even the Jackson issue would be easily solvable if some of those extra tags could somehow be of the canine variety.

 

[WYOMULE]

Well said, why would anyone let someone on their place when the board for public land hunters constantly trashes private ranch owners, its a common theme on here and with lots of other folks. There are lots and lots of great people who own ground and don't want strangers on it. It simply doesn't matter if they are dirt broke and land rich or if they are extremely wealthy. People cause lots of problems and the ranchers and or their management feel more comfortable solving their particular elk issues and opportunities with out the help of strangers.

This is a definite issue. I completely understand the landowner side coming from a ranching background.

However, there is a need for fresh thinking among the remaining family ranches about the whole economic model.

In most cases, elk are a definite commodity as well as a nuisance. I get that these guys are in the worst of both worlds in western wyoming. They can’t make money off the bull hunt because the elk are 10k high in the wilderness and they are inundated in the winter.

But the demand for out of state elk opportunities is such that there is money to be made even with late cow hunts by the ranchers and the opportunity for the state and local economies to profit by taking advantage of the market too all the while helping to get to objective.

It takes creativity and openness to the new but it seems easily achievable if all sides lay down groupthink and the hatchet.

 

[Mallardsx2]

When have you ever seen a greedy rancher lay down their hatchet?! Lol