Wolf populations max out

[JoseCuervo]

Gunner, If you're for the Elk/deer , then Why are you backing wolves ? Amen for you not likeing ATV's that harm the HAbitat, Amen for you trying to "stand up and say that Wildlife is worth protecting", I wouldn't argue that. But why stand up for an Animal that is also destroying the huntable game populations ?

Moosie,
You must have missed this on one of my earlier posts back on Page 2 of this thread....
If we didn't want wolves re-introduced, we should have commented more. The fact is, they are here, and they are protected. We need to move on, and figure out what to do now. And the best answer is the one that we start hunting them. Instead of bitching and poaching, let's manage and hunt them. My guess is that Idaho and MT will manage the wolves at the low end of the acceptable range.

The real question to answer is how do you move forward from here. The wolves are here, let's get the plans in place and start hunting them. Let's keep telling the out of staters that all the wolves prey on 6x6 bulls, and the only place to hunt Elk in MT, ID, and WY is along the roads, as wolves are afraid of ATVs, so the Elk populations are booming along roads.


I am smart enough to know that nobody is going to win lawsuits to get rid of the Wolves so they are here to stay, so we might as well manage them and focus our energy on removing Welfare Ranchers and Fat-Assed ATV riders.

 

[Moosie]

I'll admit that,,,,, and Take back the comment I made for you

WOW, I think I'm the first one in a debate at Hunttalk to do something like that ...

(PS, Although I'd jsut asune they not be here )

 

[JoseCuervo]

You don't have to take back the one about the pictures of you killing next year's 6x6'd.....

You gotta fight the battles you can win, and you can't win the Wolf battle. The best you can do is seek a "tolerable" outcome. Which is likely that ID and MT will manage numbers to the bottom end of the target range.

You can still win the battles to remove Fat-Assed ATV riders from our public lands, we can still win the battles to breach the dams on the Lower Snake in order to restore Salmon and Steelhead to Idaho, and you can still win the battle to remove Welfare Ranchers from our Public Lands. Focus on these, and you will see hunting and fishing in ID improve.

 

[Moosie]

If the hunters went out and Got rid of them...they wouldn't be here to stay then there would be no need to manage them ??!? Sounds simple for a Simple man that I am.

What is "Management" ? How many do we need to "Manage". All "Manage" means is to thin out a Few wolves here and there when they become a Problem. they are never going to open a season for them. Get real !!! We allthin kthat if the Populations grow (From 300 now to...... What # ?) then we will get 10 tags a year to go shot a Dog. Although this will make the Public happy for a bit, nothing has Changed. I'm guessing they were killed off for a reason ? There is no Use for them here.

You're right though, Bitching and raising money for lawyers to get rich isn't the Solution. If I would have the Answer I'd be govener of Idaho

 

[Moosie]

Next years 6x6 ? tell that to your Daughter that shot my future 4x4 .

that 6x6 was this years 6x6 too bud, You can't go toe to toe on Big game with me and win... although Geese and Phesant fights I'll stay out of with ya

 

[BuzzH]

Moosie, they were killed off for a reason...so welfare ranchers wouldnt bitch non-stop about them...which almost makes getting rid of them worth it.

However, that wouldnt work either as they'd just bitch some more about coyotes, eagles, ELK, DEER, ANTELOPE, DUCKS, GEESE, or anything else that competes with their livestock on PUBLIC LANDS.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Moosie,
They could give us a Wolf tag in our Sportsmen's Pack, and it wouldn't get any wolves killed. Just like the Cat tags and the bear tags they give us, rarely does anybody actually whack one while deer or Elk hunting. If they were legal to hunt, and I had a tag, I don't think I would interrupt a day of chasing Elk to skin some smelly wolf, and then carry the hide around the rest of the day.

We all know that Bears eat far more calves than Wolves, but you don't hear people wanting to kill all the bears to extinction.

And no, she did not shoot next year's 4pt, she actually shot your FORKIE for next year....

 

[Moosie]

Bitching only matters if someone stops to listen to it..........

Thats why I'm heading out for the Hollidays Con't on

 

[The Hedgehog]

Gunner, It seems like you’re asking people to not complain about a bad decision with future consequences. Have you ever complained about W?

I agree the only solution now is to get them de-listed and to start killing a few of them. I hopefully will help where I can with that one. This topic was started with an article based on Ed Bang’s bogus claims. It should be expected to receive a response. I agree with Moosie, the $ for this project could have been better used elsewhere.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Elkcheese,

I'm sure the $16 you spend on your elk tag goes a long, long, long way in helping the resource... Way to go all out

The last 3 years I've spent over $2300 to support the MTFWP...your welcome, and I'm not bitching either, its a bargain...but $16 for an elk tag is highway robbery.

I'm not slamming anyone for buying $16 elk tags, but for Christ sake, dont act like you're the puff-daddy of the hunting world dropping all that coin to help wildlife.

Now where in the world did you get this gunner?
I went back thru and carefully read it. Look who is babling now!
You took things I said way out of context of your argument. Now who is the one rambling. Having problems keeping up?
You been nipping at way to much holiday cheer?
Or as you continually accuse me of, been smoking to much wacky backy. Have you been smoking to much of your clients stock and trade!!!
And/or is it you just love me so much you want to make sure I stay in the argument with you....
I hunted in Washington for 20 plus years and as any that hunt there can tell you how bad it is, now I am here and love what I can get.
I will state that as any buisness knows, it is quantity that will help make the $$$.
I equate quantity hunters means quantity $$$ for the system.
Now if they would let a few more quantity out of staters jump up here, that would really bring in the denaro....

 

[Moosie]

(Moosie Whispers) PPPSsstttt , Elkchsr, That was Buzz that said that and not Gunner....

I went back thru and carefully read it.

OOPS

 

[JoseCuervo]

Now where in the world did you get this gunner?
I went back thru and carefully read it. Look who is babling now!
You took things I said way out of context of your argument. Now who is the one rambling. Having problems keeping up?
You been nipping at way to much holiday cheer?
Or as you continually accuse me of, been smoking to much wacky backy. Have you been smoking to much of your clients stock and trade!!!
And/or is it you just love me so much you want to make sure I stay in the argument with you....
I hunted in Washington for 20 plus years and as any that hunt there can tell you how bad it is, now I am here and love what I can get.
I will state that as any buisness knows, it is quantity that will help make the $$$.
I equate quantity hunters means quantity $$$ for the system.
Now if they would let a few more quantity out of staters jump up here, that would really bring in the denaro....

Elkcheese,
I am kind of figuring out why you were unable to function in society and have had to drop out and move to Anaconda. My guess is that the reason you spend the time in the woods by yourself is not by YOUR choice, but instead, by EVERYONE elses' choice. You definitely seem to lack in most social skills that people generally find as a minimum to assoicate with. I know that I, for one, find nothing about your manner to be socially acceptable.

That is flippin' hilarious that you "carefully read" and some how came to the conclusion that I made the "puff-daddy" post. I do not think you are capable of "carefully" reading anything, and seriously question your ability to "haphazardly" read, or even "blindly" read. The post you attribute to me was made by somebody else. Why you are so enfatuated with trying to be smarter than me is a bit weird. And given some of your past history of abnormal and/or deviant behaviour, I do find it somewhat unsettling.

Since you have "returned" (as if anybody really cared), you have posted your views on my opinions in threads I have NOT even read, let alone commented on. You have read "imaginary polls" and questioned the accuracy of polls that didn't even exsist. You attacked Nemont for "his people", of which, he has none. You posted about seeing Tigers loose in MT. And now, you accuse me of smoking dope, hitting the holiday cheer, and rambling on based upon a post I did not write. My guess is that it is not I who suffers from a losing battle with the bottle and the crack pipe.

The value of your responses/comments in the threads in SI is minimal, in my opinion. Nobody needs Deputy Cheese coming in and threatening to "ruin every thread" if Buzz and I disagree with something Paul, or CJ, or some other person posts. This forum actually self-monitors itself pretty well, and that is likely why you find such a huge amount of disdain (and/or pity) directed toward you.

With that, I hope you get all that you deserve during this Holiday Season. :BLEEP:

 

[ELKCHSR]

! ! ! G A S P ! ! ! !!!!OOPS!!!! SHITE!!!! I made a goof...
Sorry gunner....
Looked at the wrong name....
I sure hope you have a nice Christmas. It would be hard to guess it with this last post....
Now, I guess I would accuse you of the same offence you are continually hitting on me about rambling and just carrying on with out making to much sense....
Close your eyes, take a breath, and count to ten. You may find that will make you feel a lot better....
Merry Christmas...

 

[ELKCHSR]

I would also guess I would know full well why you don't let your little girl look at this area down here, her dad had an anger issue.
They have programs for that sort of thing....
MERRY CHRISTMAS ANY WAY
We all love you regardless...

 

[JoseCuervo]

Actually, I do have my youngest daughter read some of your posts. They serve as very good examples of what the disruptive kids in the back of her 4th grade class will end up. I explain to her how kids that don't listen to the teacher, don't learn how to read or write, will eventually end up as parasites on the Nation's economy and contribute nothing to Society.

I guess, in many ways, that we are all probably lucky that you don't contribute anything to society, as it is quite doubtful anything of societal benefit would come of it. Most of your comments, opinions, and pictures serve only to regress society's progress.

Oh yeah, in case you are wondering, I funded the MTFWP with many times more $$$$ than you did, so I would prefer you keep your $16 opinions to yourself, and let those of us who actively fund game management contribute to the discussion.

Hey Greenhorn,

Here is some additional information on Who and What did what, and will do what in the future.

The responsibility of managing wolves in Idaho

Various state, tribal and federal agencies play different roles in wolf management

# U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

* Then: Congress directed the Fish and Wildlife Service to prepare an initial environmental study on wolf reintroduction in 1991. The agency recommended reintroduction in 1994. When the states of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming failed to submit acceptable state wolf management plans, the Fish and Wildlife Service assumed the lead management role.

* Now: Since Idaho's and Montana's plans were approved, the agency is transitioning slowly some responsibility to state agencies. The Fish and Wildlife Service reserves the final decision on control actions.

* Future: If the proposed rule amendment occurs, the Fish and Wildlife Service will transfer most of its authority to states with an approved plan -- currently Montana and Idaho. Once delisting occurs, the Fish and Wildlife Service will handle litigation over wolf recovery and ensure the states follow their management plans.

# Nez Perce Tribe

* Then: The Nez Perce Tribe assumed the recovery effort for central Idaho in 1995 when the state Legislature rejected a plan to allow state management. The Fish and Wildlife Service and the tribe signed a cooperative agreement. The tribe also began monitoring wolves as the animals traveled across the states and formed packs.

* Now: The Nez Perce Tribe continues its monitoring responsibilities. Additionally, it provides information to the public on wolves and conducts and funds wolf research.

* Future: Under either the proposed rule amendment or delisting, the tribe and state of Idaho will develop a memorandum of understanding designating management roles. The tribe has an agreement with the Fish and Wildlife Service through 2008.

# USDA APHIS Wildlife Services

* Then: Wildlife Services conducts investigations into livestock depredations by wolves. The agency carried out control actions, such as moving or killing problem wolves, as decided by the Fish and Wildlife Service.

* Now: The agency's responsibilities have not changed.

* Future: Under either the proposed rule amendment or delisting, Wildlife Services will continue its current role. However, the agency will coordinate with state officials rather than Fish and Wildlife Service officials on control actions.

# Idaho Department of Fish and Game

* Then: In 1994, the state Legislature amended its constitution to allow the Idaho Department of Fish and Game to work with the Wolf Oversight Committee to develop a state management plan. However, the agency's role was restricted in 1995.

* Now: In 2003, the state Legislature reinstated Fish and Game's participation in wolf management. The agency participated in wolf management training in March 2004.

* Future: Under either the proposed rule amendment or delisting, Fish and Game likely will assume the lead management role in Idaho.

# Office of Species Conservation

* Then: Gov. Dirk Kempthorne directed the Office of Species Conservation to coordinate between the other agencies for wolf delisting. The office was charged with the responsibility of getting the state management plan approved.

* Now: The office oversees the state's effort to remove wolves from listing under the Endangered Species Act.

* Future: Under the proposed rule amendment, the office would continue its quest to see wolves delisted. Once delisting occurs, the agency will have limited involvement.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Politics hampers wolf recovery
By Michelle Dunlop
Times-News writer

BOISE -- Ten years after Moonstar Shadow, Chat Chaaht, Akiata and Kelly bounded into the Idaho wilderness, the state's contemptuous position toward wolves remains unchanged.

"We don't want them here. We don't like them," said James Caswell, director of Idaho's Office of Species Conservation. "But ... we're going to manage wolves to the proper level to perpetuate them in the state."

Initially, the Idaho Legislature refused to ratify an acceptable state management plan. The Legislature further forbade the Idaho Department of Fish and Game from participating in wolf recovery or management.

Early on, Ed Bangs, the federal wolf recovery leader for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, began lining up another job -- so confident was he in the states' taking over management of wolves. Instead, it would take seven years before Idaho would devise a state management plan.

While the Legislature's view of the creatures themselves hasn't changed, its attitude toward managing wolves has come a long way. The Endangered Species Act proved too formidable an opponent for the state. Over the years, legislators eventually resolved themselves to the fact that wolves were here to stay. Their original actions, however, shaped the course of wolf recovery in Idaho and still play a role in anti-wolf sentiment among residents today.

"The state essentially bailed," Bangs said. "It was just too hot for the states to handle."

Confusion over wolf reintroduction
Photo courtesy of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Upon its release, a radio-collared gray wolf escapes its metal crate and heads into the wilderness. Wolf reintroduction in Idaho spurred some legislators to ponder withdrawing from the union.



One former Idaho legislator, Laird Noh of Kimberly, believes state legislators and their constituents didn't fully understand what was at stake with wolf reintroduction.

Classifying wolves as a nonessential, experimental population remains a key decision in the whole process of reintroduction, Noh said. A nonessential, experimental population does not receive the full protection of the Endangered Species Act. That classification allowed a flexibility in managing wolves that made dealing with conflicts between wolves and livestock easier, he said.

"It would have only been a few years before wolves in Montana would have come here and enjoyed the full protection of the Endangered Species Act," Noh said.

The reintroduction of wolves under the nonessential classification, Noh said, helped the state of Idaho and its residents avoid the very stringent regulations of the Endangered Species Act at its full force.

At the time, only a few leaders in the Legislature and livestock community understood the implications of the Endangered Species Act, Noh said.

In the beginning, though, it was the Nez Perce Tribe who took the lead role in managing Idaho's new wolves when the Legislature rejected a state management plan.

"We didn't realize the implications," Noh said. "In essence, they kind of stepped into the shoes of the state."

Idaho's management plan

The Office of Species Conservation was established by Idaho Gov. Dirk Kempthorne to coordinate endangered species issues in the state. Kempthorne charged the office with ensuring that a state plan for managing wolves was developed and approved. A task force devised a plan for delisting; the process occurred over a seven-year period, Caswell said.

"The Office of Species Conservation helped shepherd the plan through the Legislature," he said.

By the time the state management plan finally got to the state Legislature, livestock community leaders and political leaders played an important role in getting it passed, Noh said.

"Over time, leadership of the livestock community educated their constituents," he said.

Former Idaho Cattle Association president Dave Nelson concurred. The association encouraged the Legislature to develop a state management plan, he said.

"We always said we could live with wolves if we could manage them," Nelson said. "We don't know if we're pleased or not, but that's the only way we can go."

Wyoming's holdup

Idaho's march toward state management suffered another setback when the state of Wyoming failed to produce a management plan that the Fish and Wildlife Service would approve. The federal agency requires that all three states involved in wolf reintroduction -- Idaho, Montana and Wyoming -- submit acceptable management plans before any of the three can assume management authority. While Montana's and Idaho's plans have been accepted, Wyoming's has not.

Why didn't Wyoming's plan pass?

"It comes down to the issue of take," Caswell said.

Each state must describe how the state will control the indiscriminate killing of wolves once the species is delisted. Under Idaho's plan, wolves will be classified as big game, subject to the same regulations the Idaho Department of Fish and Game imposes for other big game animals such as mountain lions, black bears and elk. Wyoming, however, chose another classification.

"In the case of Wyoming, wolves are classified as predators," Caswell said.

All three states need to maintain at least 15 packs in order to avoid taking cautionary measures to keep wolves from being listed again as endangered species. Wyoming's plan categorizes eight of the 15 packs as big game animals. These packs would mainly exist in wilderness areas and parks. The remaining seven packs could be classified as big game or predators, Caswell said. The Fish and Wildlife Service viewed Wyoming's classification system as conflicting with the Endangered Species Act.

"They're shooting themselves in the foot," Noh said.

Delisting

With Wyoming's state management plan up in the air, removing wolves from the protection of the Endangered Species Act looks a long way out. Even when delisting occurs, Caswell speculated, "the Feds will get sued."

"We know we're going to get sued," he said.

Instead of waiting for delisting to occur, the state of Idaho took action in its own hands. The state has asked the Fish and Wildlife Service to consider an amendment to the Endangered Species Act, the 10(j) proposal, that would allow the Idaho Department of Fish and Game to manage wolves -- with some restrictions -- even though Wyoming's plan has not been approved.

"We need more flexibility," Caswell said. "It won't hurt the population."

Currently, the Fish and Wildlife Service is reviewing the proposed change. Under the proposal, wolves remain a listed species. Some of the policies guiding wolf management would be relaxed in Idaho.

"It's still listed under the Endangered Species Act," Caswell said. "It just gives us more flexibility as far as managing the critter."

By most accounts, the longer it take to delist wolves in Idaho, the more problems that will arise. The delay in delisting means that the state can't utilize the same tools to manage and control wolves that it would have once the species is delisted. This adds to livestock-wolf conflicts.

By waiting so long to delist, "promises appear to have been broken," said Steve Nedeau, who manages big game animals for the Idaho Department of Fish and Game. "Animosity will continue to increase ... the longer it takes to delist."

Idaho's lack of participation

What impact did Idaho's diminished role in wolf recovery play through the last decade?

State involvement would have allowed for more Fish and Game employees to be involved from the beginning, rather than trying to play catch up now with the Fish and Wildlife Service, Caswell said. The state also would have a better relationship with landowners, rather than trying to forge those associations nearly 10 years into the process, Caswell said.

"We would know the problems better," he said. "I am disappointed the state didn't take the management early on. I understand why."

Noh also expressed disappointment in the state's role early on. Noh labeled the state's action as "self-defeating" and "foolish" and said that it "plagues us today in our management."

Unlike many in the state, Nelson agreed with the Idaho Legislature's initial decision not to participate in wolf recovery. The state didn't support wolf reintroduction, so it made sense not to be involved, he said.

"I think the approach was probably right," Nelson said. "I say we got them crammed down our throats."

 

[JoseCuervo]

"Only the mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf. ... Only the ineducable tyro can fail to sense the presence or absence of wolves, or the fact that mountains have a secret opinion about them." -- excerpt from Aldo Leopold's essay, "Thinking Like a Mountain"

 

[ELKCHSR]

Actually, I do have my youngest daughter read some of your posts. They serve as very good examples of what the disruptive kids in the back of her 4th grade class will end up. I explain to her how kids that don't listen to the teacher, don't learn how to read or write, will eventually end up as parasites on the Nation's economy and contribute nothing to Society.

But you don't let her see that her father can be evil, maniuplative, degrading, disruptive, rude... etc... etc.... Kinda like the evening news, only show that which keeps your extremely one sided view points in the light and try to keep the rest in the closet...
Have you showen her that you can try and brow beat others that don't agree with you to the point of getting them to quit?
That is a great thing to teach our younger generation.
Have you showen her that getting along and tolorance mean more than agreeing with you in lockstep?
Have you showen her that there is more to life than money?
Have you shown her that an adult should be who they are no matter in what company and where they are at, instead of being a Jeckle and Hyde? of course there are things that you don't show children, but will you show your true face when she gets older?
Have you showen her that one should be who they are and not hide behind others to create what ever havoc can be musterd.
I'm not being judgemental, she's your daughter, just bringing up a point since it is you that wants these types of things in the open. Well..... Ceptin for you of course....

 

[JoseCuervo]

Busy looking up the word "showen"......

 

[Ithaca 37]

EG, Thanks for all the historic info. It might help a few of the wolf haters here understand how the process has been slowed down by their ignorance.

"In the beginning, though, it was the Nez Perce Tribe who took the lead role in managing Idaho's new wolves when the Legislature rejected a state management plan.

"We didn't realize the implications," Noh said. "In essence, they kind of stepped into the shoes of the state." "

That happened about 1993 or '94. I was real active in lobbying in favor of the Idaho state management plan because I, along with a few others, realized the implications. We explained the implications to Noh's Senate Resouces Committee. The idiot side didn't believe us. The idiot side won that one. Then it took them a few years to figure out they were idiots and they've been playing catch up ever since.

Here's more info from the wolf topic up in the Elk forum:

Update on wolves in Idaho as of Nov. 30, 2004
* Population: 419
* Documented number of packs: 44
* Reproductive packs: 34
* Breeding pairs: 28
* Idaho pup count: 112
* Number of new animals fitted with radio collars: 56
* Wolves lethally controlled: 17
* Wolves illegally killed: 10
* Other or unknown wolf deaths: 9
# Update on wolf packs in Idaho during 2004:
* Wolf packs: Bear Valley, Bennett Mountain, Big Hole, Buffalo Ridge, Calderwood, Castle Peak, Chamberlain Basin, Chesimia, Cold Springs, Cook, Coolwater Ridge, Copper Basin, Eagle Mountain, Eldorado, Five Lake Butte, Florence, Galena, Gold Fork, Golden Creek, Gospel Hump, Hazard Lake, Hemlock Ridge, Jureano Mountain, Kelly Creek, Landmark, Lupine Creek, Magruder, Marble Mountain, Monumental, Morgan Creek, Moyer Basin, O'Hara Point, Orphan, Packer John, Partridge Creek, Red River, Scott Mountain, Selway, Soldier Mountain, Steel Mountain, Thunder Mountain, Timberline, Twin Peaks, Warm Springs.
Source: Nez Perce Tribe, Idaho Department of Fish and Game, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and USDA Wildlife Services