Wolf populations max out

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese,

I'm sure the $16 you spend on your elk tag goes a long, long, long way in helping the resource... Way to go all out

The last 3 years I've spent over $2300 to support the MTFWP...your welcome, and I'm not bitching either, its a bargain...but $16 for an elk tag is highway robbery.

I'm not slamming anyone for buying $16 elk tags, but for Christ sake, dont act like you're the puff-daddy of the hunting world dropping all that coin to help wildlife.


As to the actual issue, just control the wolves and the problem will be solved.

 

[JoseCuervo]

EG, I felt it was a quality archery hunt, but it had low success rates. It was tough hunting, but very fun. I hunted it in 1995 and missed 2 nice bulls one morning. Does it take a regular harvest of 390 bulls to qualify as a quality hunt? I do know some big bulls have been taken, along with some cows … never very many, but at least we had the opportunity to hunt.

Why would re-instating this hunt require closing a rut hunt? During the rut, nearly all those animals are in Yellowstone Park and not able to be hunted. Given the current bull, cow, calf ratios, where do you think the herd will be in 10 years?

Where did I ever say hunting my MT elk hunting is crummy now? It seems you have a tendency to make a lot of incorrect and irrelevant assumptions. No comments on the moose and elk quota cuts, eh? Let me guess, you’ve found a study from the University of Rhode Island that proves the riparian areas and willow bottoms of the upper Gallatin are now showing dramatic growth since the previously out of control moose population has been brought back into balance by the wolves.

I ask about the Late Archery hunt, only to understand what the purpose of the hunt was. Was it just to provide opportunity, or was it a management tool. We used to have some fun late season archery hunts for Elk, that were lousy "quality" hunts, but they were tons of fun. I love tramping around in December in snow, when the Elk seem to have let their guard down. The hunt is now gone, and I don't lament it too much, as our F&G now manages the Elk herds much differently than they did when I hunted that hunt. We have other "late" hunts that are just fat-assed hunts, where guys wait for snow to push the cows down to the road, and then ride their ATV up and blast them with the Muzzle Loaders. A real quality hunt....

My impression of the hunts around Yellowstone were that if you got drew, you hauled over 200lbs of salt, just outside the border, and then waited until you decided which 390 bull you wanted to pop..... hump

If the Elk in Yellowstone never get hunted, is that a crime or a loss? Just wondering about your comment of "nearly all those animals are in Yellowstone Park and not able to be hunted". Maybe it is OK to have a herd in Yellowstone that doesn't get hunted, but brings tons of Tourists and $$$$ to the park communities so people can watch wolves eating Elk.

And no, you did not say hunting in MT was crummy. That is why I put that little "winking" guy next to my comments. I just like looking at pictures of big elk, and thought maybe you would share the big ones you used to kill, before the wolves came and ate all the 420 bulls....

Oh, and the study from the University of Rhode Island addressed more of the issues with Moose using Cell Phones and resutling automobile accidents. I don't think they found willows to be a contibuting factor....

URI study on cell phone use attracts national attention
Preliminary results of a University of Rhode Island analysis of the eye-movements of automobile drivers using cell phones found that the drivers have a reduced field of view - tunnel vision. Further studies may have significant implications on the use of cell phones in automobiles.

URI industrial engineering Professor Manbir Sodhi and psychology Professor Jerry Cohen used a head-mounted, eye-tracking device on volunteer drivers and concluded that the alertness of the drivers decreased considerably when they were conducting cognitive tasks, such as remembering a list of items, calculating in one’s head, or using a cell phone.

The study was featured in news broadcasts around the world, including Good Morning America, ABC World News Tonight, Associated Press National Radio, Irish National Radio, and the German affiliate of CNN.

Funded in part by the URI Transportation Center, their research also found that the tunnel vision caused by cell phone use continues well after the conversation ends, perhaps because drivers are still thinking about the conversation.

“The debate surrounding cell phone use in cars has been directed toward concerns over holding the phone,” said Sodhi. “Holding the phone isn’t the main issue. Thinking is.”

 

[BigHornRam]

Greenhorn,

The Rhode Island U study was to find out how many gummint workers it would take to write a grant to study the average weight of a bison turd on winter range in the upper Madison. The study your thinking about came from some other university.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Paul,
You started drinking early today, didn't you.....

 

[BigHornRam]

I wish! You know being as poor as I am from Bush's bad economic policies, I was kinda hoping you'ld share your bottle with me. Must be some good shit.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I would hazzard a guess that you wouldn't truly appreciate my 18 year old McCallan's.... You probably better stick with the MD 20/20....

 

[BigHornRam]

No I would'nt. I'm a whino myself. Do you have any vintage Cabernet? Nothing from France however. I wouldn't want to be involved in drinking your whine that your american green backs were used to economically support those @#)(# suckers. A whine from a good Washington vineyard will do, thank you very much.

 

[JoseCuervo]

A whine from a good Washington vineyard will do, thank you very much.

I should have known that you would be the expert on "whine"s....

And that if funny that you think Scotch comes from France. Have you ever been farther than the Mississippi???

 

[BigHornRam]

I've been fishing on the Mississippi once, but I never got to the other side. Does that count? I always thought Scotch came from the liquer store, they have some in france too? Next thing you'll tell me is that they have some in Scotland as well. I don't think I'd enjoy a Scotish whine however.

 

[The Hedgehog]

EG, The late hunts were both quality hunting opportunities and a management tool. It's definately a loss for hunters and a concern for the wildlife. I guess it might be a great win for all the tourists that visit YNP just to see wolves eating elk and moose. Your're a real comedian. A 95% reduction of moose permits and elimination of elk hunts kind of bum me out. I'm going to spend some time on the late Yellowstone hunt next month looking for a big bull and will give you my opinion of the current situation after I check it out. It will most likely be my last time I get to tag along on one of these hunts, like I said, a real bummer.

So being that you have access to all sorts of tree-hugger propaganda, I'm assuming you can get some details on the Yellowstone-area elk herd, moose, and other nearby game. I'll ask you again... What do you think the outlook will be like in 10 years, when I can take my kids hunting?

 

[Moosie]

EG, Haha, good job I live down the road from ya and hunt with ya and like you.... or I'd think you were a Real Prick like these other guys do .

On the Elk I've taken out of "our" unit I like them just fine. Be it my Spike's I'm famouse for or be it a 6 point bull you say needs growing up. Tell me again how many 300 Class bulls come from that Unit and How many you've taken that are there. We hunt that Unit to see less people, because of the toughness of the hunt, not for the Big bulls remember

Also, don't knock the fat Ass'ed atv guys that put in for the Late Winter Hunts every other year. I jsut happen to know and Hunt with a guy that does jsut that !!!! And to boot, he has a NICE 250 class Raghorn on his wall to show for all his "easy" winter range hunts..... doesn't he

Bottom line, I'm killin chit every year, big or small, passing more stuff up because Personally I like the bigger stuff ever more so every year....so there is Still game in the hills. Wolves won't eat them all.... that being said, still don't like 'um.

 

[BuzzH]

Greenhorn,

My honest opinion is that hunting, in general doesnt have that bright of a future for your kids, and that does trouble me.

I dont think the wolf issue is the one you need to worry about though, for a couple reasons.

I do believe that they are going to be managed one way or the other. How many have already been killed by the feds, highways, other critters, each other, etc. etc. etc. No animal population can grow forever, and I dont think wolves will either. Plus, I still believe that the wolves will be delisted and hunting them will happen. Like you, I'm running out of patiance with Wyoming and the whole wolf recovery BS and delisting, it isnt helping big-game herds by prolonging delisting and wolf management. I agree.

That said, I think the bigger issue you face in regard to your kids hunting opportunities is welfare ranchers, outfitters like USO, loss of habitat, sprawl, people like Bighorn Ram who think peddling public lands is a good idea, incompetent G&F, leasing of land, etc. etc. etc. as well as wolves, griz, lions, etc. etc. etc.

What I'm saying is this, wolves will be way easier to control than any of the other things mentioned above, and thats a fact.

I hear you loud and clear on the loss of hunting opportunities from wolves and grizzlies in the Gallatin, but from a state wide perspective of what will cause your kids less hunting opportunity, its a drop in the bucket, IMO.

I dont mean to imply that we shouldnt "deal" with the current Gallatin problem.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Greenhorn, I'm pessimistic about the future of hunting, too. I hate to think about what it might be like in 20 years. I'm afraid our only hunting will be on public lands, unless we want to spend big $. I just lost my best private land quail hunting spot last week when the farmer sold to a developer. None of my other spots are half as good as that one, and I'll lose those eventually, too

Concern about the future of wildlife and hunting is why I have the attitude I show here all the time in SI. I've made wildlife enhancement my main priority. All those other issues (mining, logging, grazing, developing, pollution, foreign wars, ATVs, education, welfare, medical costs, etc.) have plenty of advocates with plenty of money. Almost every time there's a human conflict with wildlife the wildlife loses. That's why I take the side of wildlife every time. We're the underdog and I want to have good hunting opportunities on public land as long as possible. And even for the non-hunters, I want there always to be plenty of wildlife to watch. I'm fighting tooth and nail for wildlife habitat all the time.

The only answer to the wolf issue is to take one step at a time in getting over the roadblocks. Right now the state of WY is the entity that is holding up progress towards delisting. If we get them out of the way we can deal with the next hurdle, whatever that is.

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

Your a prize. Where did I say this?

"people like Bighorn Ram who think peddling public lands is a good idea"

I did say that I would prefer that the state owned the land instead of the feds. As far as I know, state owned land is public land. You were the one that was talking about selling it off. Just because federal land managers such as yourself can't manage the lands effiecently doesn't mean others can't as well. You like to throw out the words welfare rancher all the time. How about this one, welfare government worker. You know, the ones that don't earn their keep. The ones that goof off when their supposed to be on the clock. Maybe federal management of lands wouldn't be in such a sorry state of affairs if it didn't have to support so many parasites feeding off the system.

 

[JoseCuervo]

So being that you have access to all sorts of tree-hugger propaganda, I'm assuming you can get some details on the Yellowstone-area elk herd, moose, and other nearby game. I'll ask you again... What do you think the outlook will be like in 10 years, when I can take my kids hunting?

Greenhorn, I don't have any idea what the opportunities will be for hunting the Cheeto-fed elk out of Yellowstone. I never drew that tag, so I never got to haul my salt over to the park border and set up my bait site for Bulls.

I am not able to predict what will happen in 2010, but as Page 1 of this thread showed, the wolf haters predict Elk, Moose, Deer, and all other critters will be wiped out. Your son will only be able to ride horses in Montana inside of protected arenas....

I have pretty much decided that if I want to keep hunting in MY future, I will fight to protect MY OWN PRIVATE IDAHO and the public lands that I recreate on. I don't know if you noticed in the deer thread I posted, but put up a picture of my daughter's first deer. She killed it this year on her 12th birthday, the first day she was legal to hunt for deer. She did it by hiking her little butt off from before daylight until she pulled the trigger about 3pm. It came off the mountain on my back in an REI backpack (you know, the store owned by us tree-huggers ). She slept the entire way back to town. So yes, I worry about what my daughters will have to hunt, if they choose to hunt as they get older probably as much as you worry about your son. We owe it to the NEXT generation to be good custodians of our land and animals.

My daughters hopefully will benefit from a few people who finally stand up and say that Wildlife is worth protecting. I can tell you that my daughters will be able to spend more time than I can in the Frank Church on some of the world's most beautiful rivers due to some of the gains my "tree hugger" buddies have been making. Hopefully, someday, the rivers will be loaded with Salmon, again.

I am not pessimistic about the future of hunting (as I do most of my hunting on Federal Lands) because of the progress we are making in removing the Welfare Ranchers and their range maggots and cows. We are also making progress getting the Fat-Assed ATV riders banned from the public lands in order to improve hunting and fishing.

If I hunted a lot of private land, then I would be more pessimistic. We all have to fight our own battles, and mine are on the Public Lands of Idaho.

Do you really think hunting (and fishing) would be better with more people like Paul or would you think more people caring about things like Buzz will help your son catch fish and kill big critters?

 

[BuzzH]

BHR,

You're a joke.

There is no way the Western States could afford to manage that kind of land mass...impossible...in particular if the federal money dries up.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Moosie,

See, you gotta check out the SI threads... You never know when your picture will pop up....

Don't you think the first year that it is legal to hunt wolves, every wolf in Idaho will be killed? I would guess every big bellied loudmouth that can get off his barstool will be out there hunting them wolves down. They'll be gone in one year....

How many packs of Wolves do you think could settle into the Payette drainage? I bet two would be the most, maybe less. That is only 40 elk a year getting killed. How many spikes get drug off the mountain in those units?

 

[Moosie]

Gunner, If you're for the Elk/deer , then Why are you backing wolves ? Amen for you not likeing ATV's that harm the HAbitat, Amen for you trying to "stand up and say that Wildlife is worth protecting", I wouldn't argue that. But why stand up for an Animal that is also destroying the huntable game populations ?

Or wait.... I'm looknig at this all wrong, The herds Aren't being effected much. Let's bring in Indian tigers and African Lions too !!! They aren't much further NON-Native then a Canadia Wolf Hell, We have plenty of game for them to eat.

Also, the First post does say they are all gonig to be whiped out. that is a huge exageration to make a Point. But then again, it's just like what you, Ithica, Buzz and others do. to go so far to one side to bring the others to the middle. Unfortunately Right side, Left side, it's still extreeme and you don't swing people like that, it only devides them further away..............

But I shoot little deer and elk and don't have a Lawyers degree like you

 

[Moosie]

on the wolves... non would be killed by the BIggest Gripers locally. Most say they eat all the elk and deer and have yet to see a wolf. I'm jsut starting to see them and I hunted 56 days this year and 74 last year. I don't lack the field time.

I don't know what their exact impact is but they are Good hunters and Lowman has alot of Carcases laying around from the Wolf Impcat last winter. Several ones within 500 yards of the "Lodge".

I'm not a Anti Wolf Fanatic, Jsut would rather see them go

PS, going duck hunting Sunday floating the snake in a Canoe, any intrest ? there are still a few left, Although wolves did eat alot of them

 

[BuzzH]

Moosie,

I dont think you read what I wrote...my idea isnt middle of the road?

Control wolf numbers at the minimum number to keep them off the list and in control of the states?

Whats more "middle" than that?

That has been my position all along on the wolf reintro, from my initial comments on the Draft EIS through the present.