Williams named Principal Deputy Director, US Fish and Wildlife Service

[BuzzH]

Made me check myself!

It's all three: https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2003/billpdf/HB0042.pdf

I had to check too...

My next question is, since there is no pronghorn management plan, or deer management plan, that I'm aware of...how is that bill even applicable when FWP doesnt have prescribed/defined objectives and plans?

Are there AMP's, and DMP's. I dont recall every seeing them if there are.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I had to check too...

My next question is, since there is no pronghorn management plan, or deer management plan, that I'm aware of...how is that bill even applicable when FWP doesnt have prescribed/defined objectives and plans?

Are there AMP's, and DMP's. I dont recall every seeing them if there are.

The DMP is going to be in the works due to an FTE that was added in the 19 budget for a wildlife planner. That person is currently working on the new EMP & with the Elk Mgt Council - both of those were priorities for Martha, btw. No AMP that I'm aware of. Pronghorn have always been the ugly sister in the antlered & horned family.

 

[BuzzH]

How were these the doing of Martha Williams?

They aren't...question is, how did they improve under her tenure?

Don't get me wrong Ben, I think its great she fixed some of the other things, also believe she's a good pick for USFWS. I trust your judgement and she didn't make things worse for fish and wildlife...so that's a plus.

But, IMO, a great FWP director would choose to place a bit more emphasis on the Fish and Wildlife part...you know, the stuff that pays the bills.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.2/the-great-flathead-fish-fiasco#:~:text=Starting in 1968, state fisheries managers released the,their preferred food, zooplankton. The kokanee population collapsed.

 

[BuzzH]

The DMP is going to be in the works due to an FTE that was added in the 19 budget for a wildlife planner. That person is currently working on the new EMP & with the Elk Mgt Council - both of those were priorities for Martha, btw. No AMP that I'm aware of. Pronghorn have always been the ugly sister in the antlered & horned family.

Will be interesting to see how the DMP objectives shake out...I think I already know.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

They aren't...question is, how did they improve under her tenure?

Don't get me wrong Ben, I think its great she fixed some of the other things, also believe she's a good pick for USFWS. I trust your judgement and she didn't make things worse for fish and wildlife...so that's a plus.

But, IMO, a great FWP director would choose to place a bit more emphasis on the Fish and Wildlife part...you know, the stuff that pays the bills.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but when you inherit a burning bag of shit, it isn't necessarily easy to put the fire out. Especially when efforts are confounded by the legislature, agency culture, and so on.

Some of the issues you mention have been in the hopper for decades, and may not really be fixable. See the article on Flathead Lake for reference.

Some of the issues are a result of decisions based on what the public want. I doubt a robust walleye fishery is all that conducive to a robust Kokanee fishery.

Don't forget the role of the commission in all of this either. They set the rules.

 

[BuzzH]

https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.2/the-great-flathead-fish-fiasco#:~:text=Starting in 1968, state fisheries managers released the,their preferred food, zooplankton. The kokanee population collapsed.

No, they released mysis...that compete FOR zooplankton. Kokanee will feed on mysis if the lakes are shallow enough, when the lakes are too deep, the mysis and Kokanee are in different parts of the water column when salmon are most likely to feed on them.

That's my understanding...

 

[Ben Lamb]

They aren't...question is, how did they improve under her tenure?

Don't get me wrong Ben, I think its great she fixed some of the other things, also believe she's a good pick for USFWS. I trust your judgement and she didn't make things worse for fish and wildlife...so that's a plus.

But, IMO, a great FWP director would choose to place a bit more emphasis on the Fish and Wildlife part...you know, the stuff that pays the bills.

Full acknowledgement that I'm not a fisheries guy, I just listen to MTTU about the issues.

FWP has been at the vanguard of native restoration &conservation (bull trout, grayling, cutthroat) while still providing a lot of opportunity. My understanding is that a lot of the work in fisheries lately has been focused on both increasing capacity at hatcheries for nonnatives and better riverine conditions for natives and the nonnative brown, brook & rainbow (don't @me with your redband crap. Lincoln County is really Idaho, not MT).

Kokanee in Flathead were due to mysis die off, right? Why in the hell were we managing the largest incubator for bulltrout for non-native species? When the mysis died off, the kokanee died off, iirc. Whitefish have taken off in Flathead, and lake trout are still causing havoc on cutts & bulls, to my understanding.

Canyon Ferry, Hauser, Holter, etc are all vicitms of bucket biology (walleye) too, and it's resulted in an expanded walleye population in the holy waters above Craig. I don't know that it's hurt the trout fishery there though. Some monster eyes are coming out the Mo though. I've seen several 10-13 pounds fish.

But yes, every agency has room for improvement, and that's ultimately a budget issue. With mandatory 4% vacancy savings since 2009, there has been little to no new staff added anywhere to deal with increasing issues. Add on top of that changing & warming conditions & you will see more population shifts/crashes, etc.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but when you inherit a burning bag of shit, it isn't necessarily easy to put the fire out. Especially when efforts are confounded by the legislature, agency culture, and so on.

Some of the issues you mention have been in the hopper for decades, and may not really be fixable. See the article on Flathead Lake for reference.

Some of the issues are a result of decisions based on what the public want. I doubt a robust walleye fishery is all that conducive to a robust Kokanee fishery.

Don't forget the role of the commission in all of this either. They set the rules.

Correct, and why its going to take a great leader to put the bag of burning shit out...Montana hasn't found one of those yet.

As to the salmon fisheries in Holter and Hauser...some of Montana's best fisheries work is done by accident.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Correct, and why its going to take a great leader to put the bag of burning shit out...Montana hasn't found one of those yet.

Given the operating environment, I'm not sure a good leader would be all that successful.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

No, they released mysis...that compete FOR zooplankton. Kokanee will feed on mysis if the lakes are shallow enough, when the lakes are too deep, the mysis and Kokanee are in different parts of the water column when salmon are most likely to feed on them.

That's my understanding...

I'm not sure what happened with my cut and paste, but if you read the article it states the release of mysis was problematic. So was the released of lake trout in 1905.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm not sure what happened with my cut and paste, but if you read the article it states the release of mysis was problematic. So was the released of lake trout in 1905.

Prior to mysis, lake trout numbers were lower, kokanee numbers higher and remained pretty steady for decades.

Doubt many people living in Montana right now have snagged salmon in gravely bay, yellow bay, blue bay, or around Bigfork...sure was fun. Ice fishing skidoo bay for them was a lot of fun too...

That isnt cycling back.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Prior to mysis, lake trout numbers were lower, kokanee numbers higher and remained pretty steady for decades.

Doubt many people living in Montana right now have snagged salmon in gravely bay, yellow bay, blue bay, or around Bigfork...sure was fun. Ice fishing skidoo bay for them was a lot of fun too...

That isnt cycling back.

Sure, it's the unintended consequences of screwing with the ecosystem. The bomb as in the lake for over a 60 years before the fuse was added, albeit with the best of intentions.

 

[BuzzH]

Sure, it's the unintended consequences of screwing with the ecosystem. The bomb as in the lake for over a 60 years before the fuse was added, albeit with the best of intentions.

Best of intentions is when you do something on purpose to help.

BTW, the literature/science was already out there regarding lake depth and mysis, why the biolgists at the time didnt intentionally release them in Flathead. They just forgot water flows downhill and you cant make a barrier to contain mysis...honest mistake.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Prior to mysis, lake trout numbers were lower, kokanee numbers higher and remained pretty steady for decades.

Doubt many people living in Montana right now have snagged salmon in gravely bay, yellow bay, blue bay, or around Bigfork...sure was fun. Ice fishing skidoo bay for them was a lot of fun too...

That isnt cycling back.

I'd rather catch 20 pound bulls & 20" cutts. Natives first.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Best of intentions is when you do something on purpose to help.

BTW, the literature/science was already out there regarding lake depth and mysis, why the biolgists at the time didnt intentionally release them in Flathead. They just forget water flows downhill and you cant make a barrier to contain mysis...honest mistake.

I'm not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing at this point.

Early in the 20th century, biologists believed only 10 species of native fish lived in Flathead, the West's largest natural freshwater lake. But anglers and game officials had already introduced other species. "It was a Johnny Appleseed approach," Vashro says. "Throw in lots of stuff, see what makes it."


In 1920, a shipment of kokanee arrived from Bonneville, Ore. By 1940, kokanee, which are landlocked sockeye salmon, had replaced cutthroat trout as the most-caught fish, and they remained dominant until the 1980s.


Meanwhile, the lake trout, introduced from the Great Lakes in 1905, bided its time. "There are many cases in which a species arrives and it just sits around," says Daniel Simberloff, an authority on invasive species at the University of Tennessee. Then, he says, something changes to trigger a rapid expansion. In Flathead Lake, it was Mysis shrimp. Starting in 1968, state fisheries managers released the shrimp in several lakes of the Flathead watershed to enhance kokanee stocks; the shrimp moved downstream and reached Flathead Lake in 1981.


Instead of being a boon, though, Mysis competed with kokanee for their preferred food, zooplankton. The kokanee population collapsed. More importantly, younger lake trout feasted on shrimp, and the population soared. They ate nearly all of the remaining kokanee, as well as any other fish they could get their mouths around. Today, an estimated 1.6 million lake trout live in Flathead; more have since migrated and colonized most of the watershed.


Many of the remaining native fishes in Flathead Lake have dramatically declined, including bull trout, the top native predator.

 

[BuzzH]

I'd rather catch 20 pound bulls & 20" cutts. Natives first.

Possible to have that and a kokanee fishery...when was the last time you saw a kokanee feeding on a bull trout or cutthroat?

 

[Ben Lamb]

Possible to have that and a kokanee fishery...when was the last time you saw a kokanee feeding on a bull trout or cutthroat?

Wasn't thinking predatory so much as out-competing them for space. Then you add the lake trout on top of that, and bam - ecosystem for recreation, not conservation.

 

[Schaaf]

I have disagreed with a lot of the wildlife management over the last few years but I believe the total amount of acres conserved through Habitat Montana allocations under her tenure will go unmatched for a very long time.

Overall, I was happy with her leadership and am glad to see her move into USFWS.

 

[bonniecutthroat]

Regarding kokanee declines in Flathead Lake, see the link for what has become an actual text book example of food web cascades. Likely, it isn't as simple as this simple cause and effect, but it probably isn't too far from it either.

https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1287&context=biosci_pubs

"By 1985, the density of opossum shrimp in Flathead Lake had increased to 49 organisms/m2, illustrating the rapid growth of this invading species. Within two years, the kokanee population was noticeably reduced. In 1987, only 330 kokanee migrated into McDonald Creek, and only 50 spawned in 1989. The salmon demise also was reflected in the annual catch by angler fishermen, which often exceeded 100,000 kokanee through 1985 (Beattie et al. 1988). As the shrimp population grew, angler harvest declined precipitously to fewer than 6000 in 1987 (Beattie et al. 1988), followed by no reported catches in 1988 and 1989."

"Because kokanee do not feed effectively on opossum shrimp at night, the vertical migration of the shrimp to deep waters during the daytime largely precludes kokanee from exploiting this new potential prey."