Wilks brothers true colors are shining through.....

[katqanna]

Yeah, it's not going to be an issue with the GPS. Glonaas or waas won't be off that far if they're showing a signal.

Kat- The point I failed at trying to point out earlier was the GIS data being the possible culprit, not the GPS itself. I have no idea if that's the case here or not, but it wouldn't be unheard of for it to be off that far. The distances Wingman's showing seem very extreme though, and does raise eyebrows.

No one knows either way until it's surveyed.

Randy, thats part of what I am requesting is the BLM survey. I went through the Montana Cadastral for each of those parcels, listing their Geocode and their Legal Description so there would not be any confusion as to what I was requesting.

 

[katqanna]

I just got off the phone, first, with the Fergus County Clerk & Recorder, to see about electronic copies of the BLM land surveys. They could not locate the parcels in question without a certificate of Survey number. I had Geocodes and Legal Descriptions from the Montana Cadastral program, which did not list any Certificate of Survey numbers.

So she referred me to the Fergus County Assessors office who could take my Geocodes and give me a Certificate of Survey number for each parcel. Problem was, there has never been any surveys on record for these BLM lands in order to have a Certificate of Survey number, not one. I checked all the surrounding Wilks parcels with the Cadastral and none of those show any Certificate of Survey numbers either. So I called the Assessors office back and ran a number of these parcels through, providing the Geocodes and no certificates of Survey numbers for the Wilks parcels either, not even the smaller one that was part of a large block of BLM land.

How can fences be erected without a survey? Or, "After BLM staff conducted a flyover and ground visits using a survey-grade GPS, no encroachment was found," if there has not been a survey?

Is there some connecting bit of information that can explain any of this? I am unfamiliar with looking into land not being surveyed, so this is uncharted territory for me.

Surveys and maps (topographical) for the following BLM properties, known as the Durfee Hills - Geocode, with Legal Descriptions in parentheses.
08-2143-14-1-03-01-0000 (S14, T12 N, R22 E, S2NE4, SE4NW4, E2SE4)

08-2143-13-1-03-01-0000 (S13, T12 N, R22 E, SW4NE4, S2NW4, S2S2, NW4SW4, NW4SE4)

08-2143-23-1-01-01-0000 (S23, T12 N, R22 E, NE4, N2SE4, NE4SW4)

08-2143-24-1-02-01-0000 (S24, T12 N, R22 E, G LTS 2,3,4, W2E2, NW4, SE4SW4)

08-2144-19-3-01-01-0000 (S19, T12 N, R23 E, G LTS 3 AND 4, E2SW4, W2SE4)

08-2143-25-1-01-01-0000 (S25, T12 N, R22 E, G LTS 1,2,3, W2NE4, NW4SE4, NE4NW4)

08-2144-30-1-02-01-0000 (S30, T12 N, R23 E, G LTS 1,2,3,4, E2NW4, NE4SW4, N2SE4, S2NE4, NW4NE4)

08-2144-31-2-02-01-0000 (S31, T12 N, R23 E, G LTS 1,2,3, SE4NW4, E2SW4, SE4)

23-2034-06-1-01-02-0000 (S06, T11 N, R23 E, GOVT LT 2)

 

[fowladdict]

Is there some connecting bit of information that can explain any of this? I am unfamiliar with looking into land not being surveyed, so this is uncharted territory for me.

Kat,

If you have the time I would be happy to explain this to you. I am a Professional Surveyor in the state of Idaho and have worked on multiple surveys involving federal lands. I will send you a PM.

 

[belly-deep]

Those types of fences are one of the reasons I'm not gung-ho for free range bison in MT. Those babies would be popping up on every ranch in the area.

This couldn't have been a quick death....

 

[tjones]

or this:


http://rmefblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/hunters-free-elk-calf-stuck-in-barb.html

 

[RobG]

or this:


http://rmefblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/hunters-free-elk-calf-stuck-in-barb.html

Wow, cool story. I freed a fawn last year that was too weak to walk but never thought of offering it water.

 

[havgunwilltravel]

Reading this thread with interest.

We generally have 5 strand fences over here and i am constantly finding wildlife, deer and other animals hung up, some alive, some dead. Often as they jump over their feet/hooves/paws don't make it, catch on the top strand and slide down behind the wire, normally they can pull free, but often their legs get caught in front of the next strand lower down (but behind the top strand) whilst their bodies are over on the other side of the fence and there is no way they can pull themselves free as they are effectively hung up by their legs with their bodies on one side of the fence and the leg tangled around on the other.

I really hope for a good outcome here and can see a lot of guys putting in a lot of work to try to protect the rights of public land hunters, especially those that are able to access this piece of dirt. Good luck.

 

[katqanna]

I was on the phone most of yesterday and this morning with surveyors and agencies. First, FWP's Sonja Smith confirmed that FWP not only was not consulted by the Wilks on the fence, but they do not have jurisdiction on fencing - hence FWP did not give any approval to their fences contrary to rumor.

Second, information BLM confirms there are no current professional surveys on this land and that the BLM was not consulted by the Wilks on the fencing, which is higher than and the bottom wire lower than regulations.

So when I inquired as to who to contact to make a request for BLM to conduct a professional survey on the Durfee Hills, I was directed to send it to the BLM State Director Jamie Connell - [email protected]

Here is part of my request if it helps anyone to word theirs - public participation in this matter was encouraged.

BLM State Director Jamie Connell,
As a conservation hunter and founder of Enhancing Montana's Wildlife & Habitat I have been investigating the situation with the Wilks erecting a fence around the Durfee Hills BLM land (listed below by geocode and legal descriptions) and the legality of the Wilks fence per laws. Yesterday I made a call to the Fergus County Fergus County Clerk & Recorder, to see about electronic copies of the BLM land surveys. They could not locate the parcels in question without a certificate of Survey number. I had Geocodes and Legal Descriptions from the Montana Cadastral program, which did not list any Certificate of Survey numbers. The clerk referred me to the Fergus County Assessors office who could take my Geocodes and give me a Certificate of Survey number for each parcel. Problem was, there has never been any professional surveys on record for these BLM lands in order to have a Certificate of Survey number, not one. I checked all the surrounding Wilks parcels with the Cadastral and none of those show any Certificate of Survey numbers either. I called the Assessors office back and ran a number of these parcels through, providing the Geocodes and no certificates of Survey numbers for the Wilks parcels either, not even the smaller one that was part of a large block of BLM land.

One of my questions: How can fences be erected without a survey? Further research into this subject has led me to conclude the necessity for the BLM to conduct a professional survey of our public lands.

I am writing to request the Bureau of Land Management, a trustee/trust manager of our public lands, to conduct a professional survey of the Durfee Hills in Fergus County, Montana, which does not have a current professional survey, per the Fergus County Assessors office – to define the legal boundary, to check for ground disruption and that private fencing does not encroach on our public lands.
I would also like to request that you investigate the Wilks 5 wire fencing being erected to determine it's compliance with the Unlawful Inclosures of Public Lands Act, which is cited in your BLM Fencing Standards Manual H-1741-1, “Fences Along Public-Private and Public-State Land Boundaries, The responsibility to install fencing along the boundary between Federal public lands and lands owned by non-Federal entities (i.e., State, local, private) generally rests with the non-Federal landowners...The Unlawful Inclosures Act of 1885 (UIA), as amended, is applicable to fencing constructed along or adjacent to public lands. This law states, in part, that 'No person, by force, threats, intimidation, or by any fencing or enclosing, or other unlawful means...shall prevent or obstruct free passage or transit over or through the public lands...' The courts have ruled that the UIA guarantees access to public lands for all lawful purposes and that wildlife access to and use of Federal lands is a legitimate use. ”

Surveys and maps (topographical) for the following BLM properties, known as the Durfee Hills - Geocode, with Legal Descriptions in parentheses.
08-2143-14-1-03-01-0000 (S14, T12 N, R22 E, S2NE4, SE4NW4, E2SE4)

08-2143-13-1-03-01-0000 (S13, T12 N, R22 E, SW4NE4, S2NW4, S2S2, NW4SW4, NW4SE4)

08-2143-23-1-01-01-0000 (S23, T12 N, R22 E, NE4, N2SE4, NE4SW4)

08-2143-24-1-02-01-0000 (S24, T12 N, R22 E, G LTS 2,3,4, W2E2, NW4, SE4SW4)

08-2144-19-3-01-01-0000 (S19, T12 N, R23 E, G LTS 3 AND 4, E2SW4, W2SE4)

08-2143-25-1-01-01-0000 (S25, T12 N, R22 E, G LTS 1,2,3, W2NE4, NW4SE4, NE4NW4)

08-2144-30-1-02-01-0000 (S30, T12 N, R23 E, G LTS 1,2,3,4, E2NW4, NE4SW4, N2SE4, S2NE4, NW4NE4)

08-2144-31-2-02-01-0000 (S31, T12 N, R23 E, G LTS 1,2,3, SE4NW4, E2SW4, SE4)

23-2034-06-1-01-02-0000 (S06, T11 N, R23 E, GOVT LT 2)

Thank you,
Kathryn QannaYahu

 

[bigskyblueman]

Not consulted? Not up to code? Shocking.

 

[bigskyblueman]

Request sent. Good work , Kat.

 

[RobG]

Thanks for putting so much effort into this Kat. I wish I had your dedication to the cause.

 

[katqanna]

Thank you guys, and thanks to Wingman and the other hunters that documented what was going on (especially that 5 wire fence shot that gave me more to work with) or we wouldnt have anything to work off of; Nameless mentioned the Clerk and Recorder (cant believe I didnt remember that avenue), which prompted me not to wait for a FOIA to get the surveys, as a result I found out there are none; additionally all those that have already replied that they have sent comments in this evening (I have had a number of emails from the newsletter alert). Hopefully, we can collectively have an impact here.

 

[bigskyblueman]

Indeed, thanks to wingman and Hank375 for taking time from their hunt to uncover these dubious activities.

 

[Bugle 'Em In]

or this:


http://rmefblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/hunters-free-elk-calf-stuck-in-barb.html

Leave me outta this Mr. TJones

 

[RobG]

Second, information BLM confirms there are no current professional surveys on this land and that the BLM was not consulted by the Wilks on the fencing, which is higher than and the bottom wire lower than regulations.

Kat - when you say "no current professional surveys" are you referring to BLM surveys or does that mean that the Wilks did not conduct one?

 

[katqanna]

Kat - when you say "no current professional surveys" are you referring to BLM surveys or does that mean that the Wilks did not conduct one?

Maybe this is another one of those coming from Texas culture shock things, but I was kind of floored and kept asking the question different ways to make sure I was correctly understanding the woman at the assessors office (she must have thought I was dense - what part of no survey dont you get? lol). She said in rural areas thats not uncommon. I guess its like the, "If it aint broke, dont fix it"? I still cant wrap my head around property without a proper survey, but there has not been a frickin survey since the original line survey in the late 1800's or possibly a line survey in 1915. I found a survey program on the BLM's site that showed maps and such and for this area, based on the legal description coordinates, there were only two links available, one showed an ancient plat drawing from 1886 and the other link showed some line drawings of recognizable parcels from 1915. That was it. So between the map program, the assessors office and the BLM confirmation, all sources are saying there has not been a professional survey on those parcels.

No professional survey on either the BLM or the Wilks parcels that surround the BLM. Otherwise there would have been Certificate of Survey numbers (COS) and Certificate of Corner Recordation (CCR).

I cant understand how you embark on building so much fence and you dont have a survey. 3 professional surveyors stated the same scenarios of being called out to survey land and the property owners floored that their fence wasnt always on their property as they thought it was. In this case, it involves possible encroachment, ground disruption, sign posting, etc. on our public lands.

 

[jabber]

I cant understand how you embark on building so much fence and you dont have a survey. 3 professional surveyors stated the same scenarios of being called out to survey land and the property owners floored that their fence wasnt always on their property as they thought it was. In this case, it involves possible encroachment, ground disruption, sign posting, etc. on our public lands.

Couldn't this also work the other way too? If it has not been surveyed, couldn't the fence be way in on the private property? That is a serious question. Trying to wrap my head around who is right. Seems to me, that if it has "never" been surveyed or at least not in the last 100 years, how does anyone know where the line actually is.

It almost seems like the information in our GPS's could be gospel, but then in the next thought I think "based on what"....

 

[fowladdict]

Couldn't this also work the other way too? If it has not been surveyed, couldn't the fence be way in on the private property? That is a serious question. Trying to wrap my head around who is right. Seems to me, that if it has "never" been surveyed or at least not in the last 100 years, how does anyone know where the line actually is.

It almost seems like the information in our GPS's could be gospel, but then in the next thought I think "based on what"....

You pretty much echo some of my thoughts. When this all blows over we may find out that the mapping programs we load on our GPS have been telling hunters all of this time that they were on public land when in fact they were not. If that is the case hopefully a survey is performed and the new GIS data will be more accurate and the mapping programs for GPS get updated. If the data is not accurate, it could even have a ripple effect on some of the adjacent sections. Then again, the data may already be fairly dependable. I hope we find out soon.

 

[sweetnectar]

Here is the low down and dirty I was taught in college regarding fences: The whole survey problem comes about because the earth is round and the surface of the earth isn't flat. If you don't like where a fence is get a surveyor and they will find you the extra feet you need. It depends on what pins they pull off and if those pins aren't getting you what you want then go to another pin and pull off of it until you get what you want. This would mean that this fence would be on and off the line depending on who or what. (possibly another problem to corner crossing) This is why legal descriptions in deeds often state acreage and often use the wording +/- 1 acre. So that means that we have to live in a world of trust where we trust a surveyor, or a neighbor, or that someone will have a fence imperfectly placed...believe me I've done it. So if this BLM land was imperfectly fenced (which it has to be because you can't achieve perfect fencing...just acceptably close) the BLM land might have more acreage within the fenced boundary or less. This doesn't mean that the land on one side of the fence automatically becomes the other guy's.

So what is acceptably close? That just depends on the individual. To my mother in law, .000001 inches is acceptable to another I know 15' is good enough, and to some ranchers sometimes it is 300' so you can get a fence line built to deal with difficult terrain.

 

[katqanna]

Yes, a survey is needed to tell boundary and establish exactly where the fence stands, one way or another. But, regardless of where that fence stands, it is still illegal as far as the Unlawful Inclosures of Public Lands Act and it is in violation of the BLM fencing standards, as well as Montana Legal Fencing Standards.

And since the Wilks did not consult the BLM about the fence, before erecting it, there may be ground disruption issues involved. Once a survey is done, then we see if there is encroachment, posting, etc. issues involved as well.