Want your "own private Colorado?" How's $5/acre sound?

Oak

Expert
Joined
Dec 23, 2000
Messages
15,931
Location
Colorado
mines0406.jpg
Special / Nathan Bilow
Mount Emmons, known as ‘The Red Lady,’ towers over Crested Butte. On Friday, the Bureau of Land Management sold 155 acres of federal land on the mountain to a multinational mining company.


Sale of mining patents roils Crested Butte residents
By Steve Lipsher
Denver Post Mountain Bureau

For $875, the Bush administration last week sold 155 acres of federal land near Crested Butte to a multinational mining company, renewing one of the nation's longest-running legal battles over a mine proposal.

The purchase, revealed late Friday, outraged local officials and environmentalists who have been fighting efforts to open a mine on Mount Emmons for more than 30 years.

The federal Bureau of Land Management dismissed three formal protests and immediately turned over the patents to nine claims on U.S. Forest Service land to the Phelps Dodge Corp.

Critics say the transfer of the unrestricted patents - essentially the deeds to the property - is a land grab based on deceit and false assumptions that will allow the company to develop the property or sell it for a robust profit.

"For less than $1,000, Phelps Dodge has acquired 150 acres of federal property next to a resort town where a tenth-of-an-acre lot is selling for $100,000," said Jim Schmidt, mayor of Crested Butte.

"Obviously the concern is that the mining company has just gained a bunch of U.S. property ... that they can use for mining or development or whatever," he said.

A ruling by BLM Director Kathleen Clarke dismissed protests filed by the High Country Citizens' Alliance, the town of Crested Butte and Gunnison County, and led to the immediate issuance of the patents.

"In general, the protesters' allegations regarding why they believe the Department of the Interior should reject Mount Emmons' patent application are unsupported in fact and in law," Clarke wrote in the April 2 decision.

Officials at the BLM, the Interior Department agency that handles mining patents for all federal lands, declined to comment Monday, saying that any statements would have to be cleared first by the agency's attorneys in Washington and would not be forthcoming.

Phelps Dodge spokesman Ken Vaughn said company officials haven't decided whether to proceed with a new mine.

He said that the company is in litigation with the previous owner, U.S. Energy. Citing that federal civil suit, Vaughn declined to comment on the newly awarded patents or criticism of that move.

Phelps Dodge operates the Henderson molybdenum mine in Grand and Summit counties and owns the dormant Climax mine in Lake County.

The administration's decision comes during a nationwide moratorium on issuing new mining patents, but federal courts have ruled that the sale of the 155 acres near Crested Butte, originally proposed in 1992, could be grandfathered in.

The federal Mining Act of 1872 requires the government to sell mining patents at $5 per acre, one of the many antiquated provisions challenged by critics such as the High Country Citizens Alliance. That organization formed in the mid 1970s specifically to fight proposals for mining on Mount Emmons, and the group says their case is the oldest ongoing legal battle over mining in the county.

Groups such as the alliance question the motives of the BLM, the process by which it reached its decision, and predict a legal challenge.

"These issues are too important to let this travesty go unchallenged," said Roger Flynn, director of the Western Mine Action Project, a nonprofit legal organization that monitors mining operations.

His organization spearheaded a campaign against the sale, arguing that the mine would not be a viable business under today's economic and regulatory climate - a requirement for obtaining a mine patent.

Few observers believe that Phelps Dodge will open a molybdenum mine on Mount Emmons, known locally as "the Red Lady." They cite the company's own acknowledgment that molybdenum is more readily available from existing mines in Colorado, in Arizona and throughout the world.

"I think the reality in the molybdenum market, at least now and for the foreseeable future, doesn't make any sense to do any mining up there," said Crested Butte town manager Frank Bell. "That could change."

In her ruling, Clarke cited studies indicating the mine would operate 24 hours a day for 11 years, producing as much as $158 million in after-tax profits.

"We think they overinflated the price of molybdenum, and they lowballed the cost," Flynn said. "The Bush administration apparently had no problem with Phelps Dodge saying: 'This is a viable operation.' It's really not based on any credible reading of reality."

For more than 30 years, locals in the former mining community have fought efforts by a series of property owners to renew mining on Mount Emmons, 3 miles west of the Crested Butte ski area.

Once, Mayor W. Mitchell, who used a wheelchair to get around, was flown to the top of the mountain in a helicopter in protest, and the town to this day still holds the annual "Red Lady Ball" to raise money to fight other mining efforts.

"It was really back when the community opposed the Amax attempt to mine the deposit in the early 1980s that the community said its destiny was being a tourism resort area," said Jim Starr, a Gunnison County commissioner who represents the area.

He complained that the BLM, an agency that just last month vowed greater involvement and communication with local governments over public-land decisions, hadn't bothered to notify any of the organizations that filed appeals.

"That absolutely did not happen here," he said. "And really, as an elected official, it makes you wonder how sincere those efforts are."
 
Somebody bought land for $5/acre when its $1,000,000 and acre? This is one of those unbelievable things. It makes me wonder, what's the real story?
 
I find it funny that this head protester used his wheel chair to get around (built form mined minerals) to mount a protest with a helocopter (mined as well).

Since we're bitching about stuff, I don't think Crested Butte should even be in the mountains, it should be out in the plains where it won't destroy my view of the mountains. What a bunch of hypocritic douchbags.

They want all their luxuries but we don't want to give up anything for them...$1M an acre... come on... what do you supose those houses look like? I bet there's an aweful lot of stone in em and not to mention other MINED materials... wonder where that came from?

The poperty obviously has some intrensic value or PD would have just dropped it after all the litigatoin. They're a mining company not a realestate company... I highly doubt that they will turn around and dump it on the market after the 30 years they've been waiting to get it, but who knows I bet when they started they didn't think that just the price of the land would be worth more than the minerals with in it. The $5 an acre is just part of the mining law... I wonder what they had to pay the goverment for the mineral rights... my guess is it was more than just $5 an acre... Could you imagine what would happen if they did develope it... all those fuggers that are selling property for 1,000,000 an acre would be pretty pissed that their realestate just dropped.

Most of the towns and roads in Colorado wouldn't even be on the map if it wasn't for someone paying thier $5 for their 600'x1400' claim in the mountains. I think all the towns in the moutnins in CO should be destroyed and the people moved else where like kansas, after all that land those towns are built on were at one time mining claims them selves... I wonder what has a bigger impact on the ecosystem... I mine that hasn't even opened and will only operate for 11 years, obviously not that big of a mine, or 5000+ people? I'll put money on it that the people will do WAY more harm than that mine ever will...

I'm not advocating destruction of the planet, but a mines a mine if you don't want to use the materials that come from them then give them all up and live off the land... Oh wait you would still destroy something in the process. Maybe they should just go kill themselves... so they can save us all.

Piss and moan all you like about it but your little computer and all the crap that runs it is directly linked to Phelps Dodge one way or another. The produce WAY to much copper and other mineral to not be linked. Could you imagine if everything just went up in price 100%... Jezzz look at how much crying is going on with gas going up a quarter...

What about all the tax money that will go into the county where the mines are? Look at the other counties in CO with mining activity and then look at teachers saleries for example in those same counties... $$$

The world has to revolve around raw materials no matter how you look at it. It all has to come from either a mine, a tree, or an animal. And with all the mining protesting going on in this nation, they can't mine shit anywhere... If it was in the middle of kansas no one would care because its not as pretty there but if is big bad CO or MT then "hell you can't put that there we like to look at that mountain" so we buy from other contries for less money putting a severe strain on their ecosystem since they have basically no laws governing pollution. So we save our natoin so we can totaly obliterate another for the sake of saving a "view"

These people are in it for one reason and one reason only... They want to keep the land the way it has always been since they've been there but there is just no way to do it. We have limited resources and of those only a handfull are viable.
 
I think if the story was honest it would state that the company leased the mining rights. Not purchased the property. You can file a mining claim on public land for almost nothing.

[ 04-09-2004, 17:17: Message edited by: Rogue 6 ]
 
I wonder what the lawyer costs on mitigating the lease in the first place cost, I would bet more than five bucks an acre...
Very well said Bambi....
The next thing these same people need to cut out of their lives is any wood based product they use, that would include soft plastics and aluminium.....
 
Originally posted by Ithaca 37:
I think it's the five bucks an acre that has lots of people upset, and that goes all the way back to the Mining Act. This type of scam has been pulled many times before and the land sold to developers.
And it will be happening again and again and again..................etc
 
Rougue 6,

You need to brush up on the 1872 mining law. They purchased the PROPERTY for $5 dollars an acre because its a patented claim.

Thats the rub, the mineral rights and the land fetched the taxpayer a whopping $875. Where in the United States can you purchase land for $5/acre?

I dont blame the company, but rather the Federal Government for not bringing the 1872 mining law into the world of 2004. Its ridiculous.
 
Piss and moan all you like about it but your little computer and all the crap that runs it is directly linked to Phelps Dodge one way or another.
Bambi, I don't see anywhere in my first post where I was pissing and moaning. I just posted the story. Now, do you want my opinion on the story so you can make an informed reply?

The land in question is a BLM inholding in the Gunnison NF and is at about 12,000 feet. It's been mined in the past, but until it was sold this week, was open to the public. The company that purchased it had to prove that it would be profitable to mine it, which it apparently did well enough to appease the BLM director. However, Phelps Dodge is also in active litigation to try to excercise their right convey the mineral rights to the property back to the previous owner, U.S. Energy. So to me, it doesn't sound like they plan on mining it.

I think the Mining Act of 1872 needs some serious revision. Evidently so do some other folks, as a moritorium on selling federal land under the Mining Act was put in place in 1994. This case was grandfathered in (after a lawsuit) because Phelps originally filed for the patents in 1992. I don't think there's ANY reason to be turning over permanent ownership of your and my public lands to a mining company. If they have the mineral rights and want to mine it, fine, but they should be required to reclaim the area when finished and reopen it to the public. If any of you think it's a good idea to turn over permanent ownership of federal land to a mining company for $5 an acre, I'd suggest you have your head examined as you may have a serious problem.

Bambi, I think you're right when you say that the people in Crusty Butt will do more damage to the area than the mine would. Regulations on mines in CO are MUCH more strict than regulation of development around ski resorts. That's another reason why I suspect there are motives other than mining behind Phelps buying the property.

Oak
 
CO, I wasn't dirrecting the piss and moan toward you at all. More so at the people that are opposed to all mining, raw material extraction in general...

The $5 an acre is a joke but there are a lot more things in this country that are a joke as well Welfare for worthless people comes to mind...

Does the article incinuate that since they made a decent profit that the goverment should be entitled to it or most of it? Thats called free enterprise... If companies weren't allowed to make a profit then where would this great country be? Under the red flag of China?

I aslo agree that the land should be turned over to the feds once the mining has been finished up. On the other hand it WILL be reclaimed back to its original state or better condition once mining operations are finished...

At the time the mining law went into effect it was designed perfectly to allow for major development of the west and to make our county totaly independant. It worked very well. Look at all the towns and citys that are directly related to what the law accomplished.

I agree that the law should be re-examined... No public property should be sold unless land is given in return of equal or greater value.

To base an entire agument on an article writen by a left winger about destruction of the planet is pretty tough to do. Just like any other shit put out by all the meadia, they leave out all kinds of key information to sway the "people" to their view.

I would be really supprised if PH sells off their new claims. Just because thier mine plan said they were expected to make $158 mill in profits doesn't mean thats what the'll make. Projecting a mining opperation on prices that are very suseptable to change is a very tricky thing to do... Tell me what you think gas will cost 20 years from now.... It could be $10 a gallon or if everyone switches to electric cars it could be $1... who knows...

It unfortunate that the public land was bought up... but wasn't all of the west public at one time? On the good side if that mine does open up maybe it will keep some bunny huggers from moving to Crested Butte...
 
Bambistew said, "I aslo agree that the land should be turned over to the feds once the mining has been finished up. On the other hand it WILL be reclaimed back to its original state or better condition once mining operations are finished...

Thats a blind leap of misguided faith...

Tell me, what condition is the zortman landusky mine in MT in? How about the Butte/Silverbow/upper Clarks fork?

Oh, and Bambistew since you're familiar with the ennis area...how about the mine in the Ruby up in Willow Creek? A huge defunct mess abandoned for the taxpayer to clean up...business as usual.

If we look to past track records on the mine cleanups, I'd say theres a zero percent chance it will be "in its original state or better."

Time to wake up and jump into reality.
 
Ummm... why don't you point out a mess that's been created in the last oh I dont' know 2-3 decades? Mining of today is nothing like it was 30 years ago. Manufacturing and everything environmentaly damaging for that matter is much different. We have learned a lot in reguards to the enviroment in the last 30 years.

How about tell me how long a mine has to monitor their property before they are released form their bond... Or how about this one, how many acres has Jacobs Ranch in Gillette has had released from their bond before their time was up because the property was reclaimed to such a state that it puts the surounding natural areas to shame... (they're the 4th largest mine in the WORLD mind you and have over 4,000 acres in full reclamation)

The reclaimed areas of Northeast WY are by far some the most productive habitat there is around there... Oh but thats right you only look at the bad things that happened 30 years ago and earlier.

Tell me what you think MT would look like if it wasn't for Butte and the mines?

Butte put Montana on the map. There isn't a single town in Western MT that wasn't related to mining in one form or another.

Do you think that you would have moved to MT if it wasn't for the mines?

It's hard to say for me... My family homesteaded in the ennis area aboug 1864. They started one of the first SHEEP ranches in the area and supplied the MINERS in Virgina City, Bannock and surrounding MINING communities with meat and wool for thier clothing... Would they have made it if it wasn't for the mines? Its hard to say but every little bit helped.

Mines have to jump though too many hoops to be environmentaly damaging any more... The feds have been burned way to many times to let a mine open up with out a bond. Mining companies have wised up as well.

Why don't you go throw you computer and everything else you own away since you don't want any mines or the minerals they produce? You're no better than anyone else. But I guess its ok for you to have mined products because you're the great BUZZ!!!

Where did all the copper and gold come from in your house, computer, etc, etc. I'd be willing to bet that with out a doubt that YOU helped Phelps Dodge finance their proposed mine in Crested Butte in one form or another!

Face it there is very limited mineral resources in the US and even less owned by private individuals. So how do you think we should go about getting more raw materials if we can't get at them? Environmentaly destroy third world countries? Whats better total destruction of a place we don't have to look at, or limited distrubance in our back yard that we can control?

If the tree huggn fedds would have let the Zortman go ahead with thier plans it wouldn't be in the same shape its in right now they would be a world producer of Gold...opperating under a BOND to clean up any problems should the company go under... Not to mention paying milloins to MT schools and MT Tech in royalties... The fedds did that one to themselves!
 
OD, S.D. -- Mike Cepak stood looking down into a pit at 80 million gallons of acid.

"In the summertime, it's the color of a nice burgundy -- like a Cherry Coke," Cepak said of the then-frozen mess on a cold winter's day.

That's the color of the toxic metals in the lake of acid left here by a Canadian company that dug more than $69 million in gold from once-public land, then left U.S. taxpayers with an expensive nightmare. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency says cleanup costs could top $40 million.

Cepak, a miner's son who grew up in the Black Hills, was one of the state regulators who gave the go-ahead for this gold mine -- and then watched it quickly descend into environmental disaster.

"We've learned you have to look at what your impacts are environmentally," Cepak says today. "If the mining company isn't doing it, then the state or federal government will be doing that."

The landscape is one of denuded hillsides, hundreds of thousands of cubic yards of waste rock and pits filled with acidic water -- leftovers from a "heap-leach" mine where cyanide was used to extract minute quantities of gold from mountains of rock.

This was public land before it was sold to miners for $5 per acre under terms of the General Mining Law of 1872. In 1988, a Canadian company, Dakota Mining Corp., started mining -- and polluting.

Less than a year after Dakota's subsidiary, the Brohm Mining Corp., started digging, the state ordered mining halted because thousands of gallons of a cyanide solution had leaked. Even when Brohm won permission to start mining again, a decade of environmental violations would follow, including more spills that killed fish in a nearby stream.


"The company always struggled financially," Cepak said. "Despite the state saying, 'You've got to do more, you've got to do more,' they just didn't have the money."

But the company's fiscal fitness was not an issue that state regulators considered in granting permits to mine. Regulators focused on the possibility of a cyanide spill, learning only too late that the much more serious problem would be the acidic drainage generated when rock was exposed to the elements.

The state allowed the mine to open even though it did not have a Clean Water Act permit, which environmentalists insisted was needed. The environmentalists won a court challenge, but not before thousands of gallons of cyanide solution had leaked.

And even after Brohm got the permit, the company repeatedly violated its terms, state citations show. In 1998 alone, seven violations were documented. Twice in 1997, Strawberry Creek ran orange with mine waste. But as many as 75 people kept working the mine, producing 189,000 ounces of gold from 1988 to 1999.

In summer 1998, facing low gold prices and opposition to a proposed expansion onto adjacent federal land, Dakota Mining President Alan Bell told the state the mine would be abandoned.

South Dakota Gov. Bill Janklow went to court, seeking to force Bell's firm to maintain the site. But the mine was played out. Dakota Mining filed for bankruptcy.

"By the time they figured out they had a problem, gold prices were heading into the tank," said Bob Mercer, a spokesman for Janklow. "If somebody had a crystal ball, they would not have allowed gold mining there in the first place."

Bell, who was paid $210,000 per year to run Dakota Mining, blames the situation on environmentalists. Had they not repeatedly challenged his plans and delayed his efforts to expand into the Black Hills National Forest, everything would have worked out, he said in a brief telephone conversation when reached at his Denver home.

Dakota "was put into bankruptcy by people in South Dakota who want to put mining out of business," Bell said. He refused to comment further, saying, "I don't want to talk to you about it. I won't get a fair hearing."

Dakota also abandoned the Stibnite gold mine in Idaho's Payette National Forest in 1998, forfeiting an $800,000 bond, far less than an estimated multimillion-dollar cleanup yet to be finished.

Bell last year was appointed to the board of Polymet Mining Corp., which is exploring an area in northeastern Minnesota where it hopes to mine copper, nickel, platinum, palladium, cobalt and gold. In announcing Bell's appointment, the company noted that Bell has raised more than $140 million for mining operations over the years, particularly through "junior" firms such as Dakota, and that he "possesses a unique understanding of U.S. and Canadian financial markets."

Back in South Dakota, state and federal officials are still dealing with 100 million gallons of water more acidic than vinegar and loaded with toxic heavy metals.

"They've got just about every metal you can imagine -- it's like the periodic table," Cepak said.

Like many companies, Brohm Mining did post a bond to cover cleanup. South Dakota has that money now -- $5.6 million, or roughly one-eighth of the expected cleanup cost. South Dakota cannot afford to pay the rest, so at Janklow's request the federal Superfund program will take over.

That means all American taxpayers will share the burden.
 
Colorado residents say cyanide mining harming lives
February 2003
U.S. Water News Online

DENVER -- A Colorado Senate committee has killed a bill that would have restricted the use of cyanide to mine precious metals like gold over the objections from residents who say the deadly chemical is endangering their lives.

Ignacio Rodriguez, who has a home on the Alamosa River near Capulin, south of Monte Vista, said he first became aware of the danger when his horses refused to drink from the river. He said tons of residue from cyanide mining still poses a danger to people downstream.

``It's sitting there like a cancer under that nice cover,'' he said.

Industry officials said banning cyanide would kill the gold mining industry in Colorado. They said cyanide was not to blame for polluting the rivers, it was the heavy metals from mining operations that caused the damage.

Sen. Ken Gordon, D-Denver, who sponsored Senate Bill 26, said he drafted the legislation after groups from across the state demanded the state prohibit any new open-pit cyanide gold mines.

Colorado's first open-pit cyanide leach gold mine, the Summitville Mine, opened in 1986 over the protests of environmentalists. Several devastating cyanide spills followed and were blamed for killing aquatic life in the Alamosa River. Cleanup is expected to cost $180 million.

The Colorado Legislature passed a law in 1993 to better regulate cyanide mining, but pollution problems continued.

The Battle Mountain Gold Mine above San Luis promised a state-of-the-art facility, but within a year, cyanide levels in the tailing ponds exceeded permit levels by 5,000 percent, according to Colin Henderson, who formed the Alliance for Responsible Mining.

The company was assessed $86,700 in penalties, and perpetual water treatment may be needed to control pollution still leaking from the site, Henderson said.

The Cripple Creek and Victor Mine is the only operating open-pit cyanide gold mine in Colorado. Last fall, the company paid a $125,000 penalty for illegally discharging pollutants into the streams of the Arkansas River.

Teller County officials said the mine was a good neighbor and said banning the use of cyanide would devastate the economy.

Link
 
Just another example that shows mining polllution isn't a thing of the distant past. I could post more of these examples, but I think you get the point. BS, I understand where you're coming from, but I also think it would be pretty irresponsible of us to sit back and let this kind of stuff happen over and over and over... I'd say that after reading these examples, the most obvious problem is that companies are not required to post bonds that come close to paying for clean-up if they decide to walk away.
*********************************************************************

The Summitville Mine in southwestern Colorado is a Superfund site of the federal Environmental Protection Agency. The EPA took over supervision of the mine at the request of Colorado mining regulators after the most recent operator of the 1,400-acre gold and silver mine, Galactic Resources Ltd. of Canada, walked away from the site and filed for bankruptcy late in 1992, leaving behind acid mine drainage and a 160-million-gallon containment filled with cyanide-laden water that threatened to spill over the earthen berm holding it back.

It is estimated that the restoration of the site to an environmentally acceptable state will cost $120 million. Attempts to garner some portion of those costs from Galactic Resources Ltd. thus far have been unsuccessful, though the firm's former chairman, Robert Friedland, is involved in a number of other mining ventures around the world and is reported to be worth at least $400 million on paper as a result of one venture in eastern Canada. Friedland has contended that he cut his ties with Galactic prior to its bankruptcy and maintains that he has no knowledge of the environmental problems at the Summitville site. According to records obtained by The Denver Post, Friedland is a subject of a federal grand jury probe of the Summitville pollution. A grand jury in 1995 indicted two former mine managers; a guilty plea was entered to charges of 40 environmental crimes from Summitville Consolidated Mining Co., the mine's corporate owner.

Though the Summitville site had been mined for gold and silver for decades following the discovery of gold in 1870, Vancouver-based Galactic Resources began its work on the site in the early 1980s. With a permit from Colorado mining regulators, the corporation prepared the high alpine site for a "heap- leach" operation in which tons of crushed ore were placed in a pit atop a vinyl liner. The ore heap then was surrounded by an earthen berm, and a solution of water and cyanide was sprayed over the heap, removing gold molecules into the solution as it seeped through the pile. The resulting solution then was piped to a separate location on the site where the gold was chemically isolated and the cyanide solution recaptured for reuse.

State mining regulators became aware that cyanide solution was leaking through the vinyl liner. Despite fines against Galactic, at least a dozen different cyanide spills totaling more than 86,000 gallons entered Cropsy Creek, one of the waterways at the top of the drainage that leads to the Alamosa River and eventually to the Rio Grande.

In 1990, regulators noted that trout in three farm ponds that took in water from the Alamosa were killed and also noted the death of 15,000 young trout stocked by the state in the Terrace Reservoir downstream from Summitville. Though threats of further action against the mine's operators continued and the EPA began to propose involvement, some 294,365 ounces of gold and 319,814 ounces of silver worth more than $113 million at current spot-market metals prices were mined before events reached a crisis point late in December, 1992.

Early in December 1992 -- just days after informing state regulators that the mine would require at least $20 million to clean up -- Galactic announced it was filing for bankruptcy. The figure it had cited exceeded the bonds it had posted with state mining regulators by more than $15 million.

When the EPA arrived at the site December 8, the level of cyanide solution in the 127-foot-deep containment around the leach pad was within five feet of the top of the earthen berm that held it back.. Further, EPA officials found six leak sites at the mine releasing 3,000 gallons of potentially toxic fluids per minute.

By hiring 55 workers immediately, EPA was able to prevent the overtopping of the berm and keep pipes from freezing and pumps from failing as the high alpine site weathered the attack of a particularly snowy winter in one of the snowiest locations in the Colorado Rockies.

Though EPA initially estimated the cost of cleanup at about $60 million, that figure has risen to nearly twice that sum in the more than three years the agency has been containing contamination there. Costs have at times reached $40,000 a day. Chemical reduction of the cyanide solutions has continued, along with work to dam two mine drains, or "adits," that were releasing large amounts of acidic ore filtrate laden with heavy metals from the heavily mined mountain overlooking the operation.
 
Cyanide has to come from some where, like a cancer just waiting...
Could you explain that a little better Elkchsr? I really have no idea what you meant. :confused:

Oak
 
I have to wonder if all the environmental damage caused by gold mining is worth it...I mean, really, is gold really something that we need? Other than being used for jewelery, does it have any other benefical purpose?
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
111,305
Messages
1,954,087
Members
35,117
Latest member
Openseason44
Back
Top