MarlandS
New member
the unions have no positive impact on my wages so they can kiss my ass.
UNIONS .. YEH ? or NEY ?
- Thread starter Moosie
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Yukon Hunter
New member
Mars-
Maybe you and Les should start your own Unions. Then you can see just what kind of clout they have.
And, I reiterate- Unions have not only put money in EVERY working man's pocket, they have made every job safer.
Maybe you and Les should start your own Unions. Then you can see just what kind of clout they have.
And, I reiterate- Unions have not only put money in EVERY working man's pocket, they have made every job safer.
les48
New member
yh, i will agree , a long time ago unions started out doing good, unfortunately it didn't last long until they became nothing but greedy bureaucrats.if you pay working dues plus annual union dues how many golf outings or vegas trips do you think you helped finance over the years?? were you ever invited to go ,free of charge? if not then why not? it's your hard earned money isn't it?i have a real problem with any organization that likes to squandor my money away for their own personal use.as for unions making all jobs safer, thats too much of a blanket statement, the teamsters is about the only one i can think of that actually made trucking a little safer.
JoseCuervo
New member
Beardown,
Settledown... There is no great conspiracy theory with Corporations. Cartels are illegal, and generally ineffective. Corporations are not people, they are just paper legal entities put together by People, like you and me. If you don't like the way the corporation is being managed, you can either Sell your shares, or buy more shares and increase your ownership/influence.
When I buy shares in a company, I expect the managers to maximize MY wealth, not their wealth, not their employee's wealth, nor their customer's wealth. Just MY WEALTH! If they do a good enough job, I may give them a bonus.
If you think Microsoft is doing something wrong by not paying their employees enough, then you can either sell your shares, or buy more, so that you have more shares than Mr. Gates.
What is the level of Union participation now days? Less than 10%???
Settledown... There is no great conspiracy theory with Corporations. Cartels are illegal, and generally ineffective. Corporations are not people, they are just paper legal entities put together by People, like you and me. If you don't like the way the corporation is being managed, you can either Sell your shares, or buy more shares and increase your ownership/influence.
When I buy shares in a company, I expect the managers to maximize MY wealth, not their wealth, not their employee's wealth, nor their customer's wealth. Just MY WEALTH! If they do a good enough job, I may give them a bonus.
If you think Microsoft is doing something wrong by not paying their employees enough, then you can either sell your shares, or buy more, so that you have more shares than Mr. Gates.
What is the level of Union participation now days? Less than 10%???
MarlandS
New member
Yh you are going to have to draw me a picture on how unions have put money in my pocket.
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pawclaws
Guest
The union did put money in my pocket!
During a survey of the Wage Board grade determination practices at Fort Campbell I discovered that Nashville, 43 miles from Fort Campbell, was not included in the wage setting process. Obviously wages in the big town were higher on average than the surrounding small towns near Fort Campbell. Then I discovered that the determination radius required by Federal Regulation was 50 miles!!
Pissed off Command and Personnel; but, the Union sent me a gift certificate to a nearby restaurant for $25.00. (Which of course I had to decline since government employees are not permitted to accept gratuities which could create a conflict of interest.)
beardown
New member
I'm not saying there is a conspriacy. I was just telling you what is really happening. Corporate america has annual meetings and set the standard for the way they plan on letting us live. They produce videos on how to acomplish this. Again I have seen two of these videos and nothing I saw had anything to do with how they plan on improving our lives, it was all how to turn back the clock before the unions built up the american standards for living. I dont know about everybody else but if you do consruction all of your pay scales are soely based on what the union scale. They look at what the union is paying then decide how much less they can pay and still keep employees. After 9-11 a company I worked for got wind that the local union was going to take a cut in pay in order to compete in the market. Well as soon as they found that out , they immediately told all the foreman and high paid guys that if they wanted to keep their job that they would have to take a pay cut. Most everybody took the cut and kept working, this was right after we were told in a meeting that 12 guys did 14 million in work that year not counting the temps! Something there just does'nt jive with me, how do we each turn out 1 million in work yet they need us to take a pay cut! Sounds to me like the main guys were planning their trips to Vegas thanks to us!!
Calif. Hunter
Active member
I doubt that the 12 guys generated 14 million in profits. They usually use gross revenue. If they had a really good return on investment (15%?), they might have made close to 2 million profit, divided among the people who risked their money to invest in the company. The investors invest in a company (which provides the jobs) based upon the return they can make on their investment. No profit = no investment, no company, no jobs. Better profit = more investment (higher stock prices), bigger company, more jobs.
JoseCuervo
New member
Beardown,
I have never heard of an owner of a company deciding they want to go into business, so they can make their workers rich. It just doesn't happen. Occasionally there is some "feel good" program, to give homeless some jobs, but those don't count.
The owner of the company you described is the one risking THEIR capital, risking their assets. They should get a huge return on their investment, as they have assumed the risk. Who ever owns that company SHOULD get the trips to Vegas, they should drive the nice cars, they should hang with the Hotties...
as they are the ones risking it all.
If you want more income, don't look to some Union to hold the company hostage, go upgrade your skills and your abilities, to something with a higher market value. Nobody ever got rich swinging a hammer or turning a wrench. It is only after they get other people to swing hammers for them, and they are able to leverage their capital and the labor of others, do the riches flow. We call that Capitalism, and that is a fundamental part of our economy.
I have never heard of an owner of a company deciding they want to go into business, so they can make their workers rich. It just doesn't happen. Occasionally there is some "feel good" program, to give homeless some jobs, but those don't count.
The owner of the company you described is the one risking THEIR capital, risking their assets. They should get a huge return on their investment, as they have assumed the risk. Who ever owns that company SHOULD get the trips to Vegas, they should drive the nice cars, they should hang with the Hotties...
If you want more income, don't look to some Union to hold the company hostage, go upgrade your skills and your abilities, to something with a higher market value. Nobody ever got rich swinging a hammer or turning a wrench. It is only after they get other people to swing hammers for them, and they are able to leverage their capital and the labor of others, do the riches flow. We call that Capitalism, and that is a fundamental part of our economy.
beardown
New member
I agree 100 percent thats why I'am a licesed contractor now! I got tired of getting hosed. I'm not saying that the owners should take it in the shorts for the working guy, hell most guys I've worked with were way over paid. I just think that there is a place in this country for unions. I still beleive that with out the union threat, most people would be making minnimum wage at best.........And before I get struck down with replies about me being an owner and support the union, let me say this.......In my position the union would help me, it would allow me to bid larger jobs and be able to bring in the man power ( that I know is worth a chit) to do that job! I also like the idea that I dont have to deal with training and I dont need to worry about bennys or retirement. To make myself clear, being a union shop I'm not tied down to my employees. This would allow me to concentrate on my company and in the end enjoy a much lareger revenue with out all the headaches!
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pawclaws
Guest
Elkhunter take a look at the history of John Cash Penny, Sears and Roebuck, and even Sam Walton. While the corporate structures of the Boards of Directors and the shareholders have perverted the directions of the evterprises, the original intent was pretty much exactly to make the employees rich. They also were strong into the belief that doing the right thing was cause enough for doing it. Today you might want to examine Johnsonville Sausage, Apple Computer, Harley Davidson, just to see how the philosophies of the company owners when including the "best" for the employees and the customers tend to make things work.
JoseCuervo
New member
Pawclaws,
My guess is that JC Penney, Mr. sears and Mr. Roebuck, Mr. Walton, et. al, all started their stores because they saw a need. (Didn't JCPenney start in Kemmer wyoming??)
I think what you see in common with the companies you mentioned is their commitment to "Pay among the leaders" and have a good environment. Part of being able to pay well is being able to make lots of money. And being able to re-invest in R&D and into sales, etc.. etc.. But, don't be fooled for a second, that the purpose of Apple is to make their employees rich. The goal of Jobs and Company is to Maximize the Long Term Sustainable Wealth of the Company's shareholders. Anything else is a breach of Fiduciary Duty. One of their tools is to keep good employees, and to do that, they "pay among the leaders", and have parties every so often.
We don't have to look back to far in Apple's history to see the lean times, and they weren't the "happiest of campers"...
My guess is that JC Penney, Mr. sears and Mr. Roebuck, Mr. Walton, et. al, all started their stores because they saw a need. (Didn't JCPenney start in Kemmer wyoming??)
I think what you see in common with the companies you mentioned is their commitment to "Pay among the leaders" and have a good environment. Part of being able to pay well is being able to make lots of money. And being able to re-invest in R&D and into sales, etc.. etc.. But, don't be fooled for a second, that the purpose of Apple is to make their employees rich. The goal of Jobs and Company is to Maximize the Long Term Sustainable Wealth of the Company's shareholders. Anything else is a breach of Fiduciary Duty. One of their tools is to keep good employees, and to do that, they "pay among the leaders", and have parties every so often.
We don't have to look back to far in Apple's history to see the lean times, and they weren't the "happiest of campers"...
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pawclaws
Guest
Yep, and Penney's was originally called "The Golden Rule Store", and Harley Davidson was near tits up with foreign competition and inferior quality until they discovered the "employee" resource, and Apple had pretty much the same awakening early on. What you said about "corporate" sustainability I think may be the culprit. A beaurocratic, faceless, nonentity. Always seems to appear before the customer loses importance and the original objectives become lost and replaced with greed. Damn I think I've got the solution; it isn't Union or Management; it's the freakin' accountants!!
JoseCuervo
New member
Paws,
It is much easier to be "customer focused" when you are a small entrepeneurial enterprise. But if you grow, you will undoubtably need to hire more managers and more layers. It just happens. But lots of things change, and behaviours change.
I would suggest that Harley's succes has NOTHING (sorry Schmalts) to do with the employees, and everything to do with a fad of Old White Guys having middle age crisis, and thinking they need a Hog. When all those old white guys start having heart attacks from clogged arteries, I would predict sales will go down.
I don't think I know a Harley owner younger than 50 years old.
And don't you think your shopping habits have changed? My grandma used to shop at Sears, and buy Appliances, Clothes, and Hardware. Now, I go to Home Depot for Hardware, BestBuy for appliances, and The Gap for clothes. I don't want to sit and look thru a 400 page catalog. Retail is a brutal business, and there are always "seas of change" hitting the landscape. It is good managers who can see them and adjust accordingly, and the Unions only serve to hamper and slow down the reactions.
It is much easier to be "customer focused" when you are a small entrepeneurial enterprise. But if you grow, you will undoubtably need to hire more managers and more layers. It just happens. But lots of things change, and behaviours change.
I would suggest that Harley's succes has NOTHING (sorry Schmalts) to do with the employees, and everything to do with a fad of Old White Guys having middle age crisis, and thinking they need a Hog. When all those old white guys start having heart attacks from clogged arteries, I would predict sales will go down.
I don't think I know a Harley owner younger than 50 years old.
And don't you think your shopping habits have changed? My grandma used to shop at Sears, and buy Appliances, Clothes, and Hardware. Now, I go to Home Depot for Hardware, BestBuy for appliances, and The Gap for clothes. I don't want to sit and look thru a 400 page catalog. Retail is a brutal business, and there are always "seas of change" hitting the landscape. It is good managers who can see them and adjust accordingly, and the Unions only serve to hamper and slow down the reactions.
MarlandS
New member
Is YH missing in action? I'm still waiting for my picture.... must be looking for the crayons.
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pawclaws
Guest
"I would suggest that Harley's succes has NOTHING (sorry Schmalts) to do with the employees, and everything to do with a fad of Old White Guys having middle age crisis, and thinking they need a Hog. When all those old white guys start having heart attacks from clogged arteries, I would predict sales will go down." Elkgunner, that's because you haven't been to Japan lately. HD is the number one selling bike in Japan for near 12 years now and it ain't old farts like you and me buying it! What brought HD back to life is a "japanese management style that we taught Japan. It is mopst definitely the employees and their focus on the customer's expectations and providing the quality that the customer wants .
Fascinating history there!
And you are right also; "The bigger you get, the mnore managers you hire!" Too bad isn't it because you know what; "nobody knows how to do their job any better than the employee doing it! Whey do you need another manager??? Think about it!!
And you are right also; "The bigger you get, the mnore managers you hire!" Too bad isn't it because you know what; "nobody knows how to do their job any better than the employee doing it! Whey do you need another manager??? Think about it!!
JoseCuervo
New member
Hey Paws,
You are right, I haven't been to Japan since October, and before that, I wasn't there since June, and before that it was May, and in April, I was their two times, Once more in March, once in Feb....
So I probably don't have a clue as to what is going on there.... When was the last time you were in Japan?
And I won't be back to Japan until....hmmm.. Next month
But thank you for the lecture on Japan and consumer habits of the Japanese.
And it is my guess that I can not convince you old White guys so I will just wait until them clogged arteries start kicking in...
But in my opinion, both within the MotoroCycle and other industries (Autos, etc..) Quality of ALL manufaturers has improved, but that does not mean ALL companies are prospering. Look at Detroit. Any car rolling out of the Big 3 is far better in quality than the ones coming out at the time of AMF-Harley, but yet you don't see those companies prospering. Harley's "perfect storm" of old White guys looking for lost youth and the ability to see their own shoes is what has made them the success they are today. You can treat your employees very well when you are making outrageouls profits. I think that is great.
You are right, I haven't been to Japan since October, and before that, I wasn't there since June, and before that it was May, and in April, I was their two times, Once more in March, once in Feb....
And I won't be back to Japan until....hmmm.. Next month
And it is my guess that I can not convince you old White guys so I will just wait until them clogged arteries start kicking in...
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pawclaws
Guest
Didn't realize you were such a world traveler!
Next time out take a look around on the street and do kind of a mental inventory of what you see. I haven't been to Japan since 92 so it has been a while!! You are correct about the remaining Detroit or more specifically Warren auto manufacturers. They aren't prospering simply because the management styles haven't changed to keep up with the times. You still have the traditional battles between production and quality control, sales and manufacturing and the real biggie is the continual change in market strategy attempting to predict what the consumer will be wanting next year. Those elements will continue to haunt Michigan and American automobile manufacturing until we wake up and realize that other folk make autos; some a bunch better than ours. The crash of Chrysler in the early 80s should have been a wake up call. Not the crash itself; but the fact that the government bailed it out. To me that indicated that the auto industry was already bordering on being helpless in terms of direction and in desperate need of change. They still are! The hybrids and recent experimentation with fuel cell technology is 25 years behind the power curve. Let me give you a practical example of development in the auto industry. What do you think it costs to change a negative side battery cable connector in a Ford Escort? Would you think that $450.00; excluding labor is excessive???
cjcj
New member
Quality is what "saved" Harley Davidson, back in the 70`s a company [AMF] ran H.D. into the ground, the "hogs' were a piece of shit! and the employees [workers/management] working together improved Quality and productivity to make a fine motorcycle, old guys with money living a second childhood also "demand" Quality for the buck.
JoseCuervo
New member
Paws,
I am pretty sure that Harley is not the leading nameplate in Japan. Not to call BullShit on you, but could you let me know where you got that piece of data? I sure haven't seen it in the 1/2 dozen trips per year I make over there.
My guess is that somewhere, somebody stratified the data in some narrow band, and said Harley was the number one brand of MotorCycles in Japan as purchased by Left-handed Sumo Wrestlers.
I was able to find a Harley press release from 2000
http://investor.harley-davidson.com/news/20010117-30784.cfm?bmLocale=en_US
that showed they have less than 20% market share in the 651+cc bikes in Japan+Austraila (not broken out by country) which showed a DECLINE on Harley's part in being able to sell into that market.
And interestingly enough, all the Harley fans who think the workers are the key to the success, it is interesting how you have forgotten the 45% tarriff surcharge slapped on imported heavyweight motorcycles in 1983. Yes, it took Reagan's protectionsim to prop up Harley.
The bikes that I always notice in Japan, besides the thousands of Rice Rockets and Crotch Rockets, is the XL/XT type of on-road/off-road bikes. I doubt, other than sidewalks, they ever get to be off the road.
I am pretty sure that Harley is not the leading nameplate in Japan. Not to call BullShit on you, but could you let me know where you got that piece of data? I sure haven't seen it in the 1/2 dozen trips per year I make over there.
I was able to find a Harley press release from 2000
http://investor.harley-davidson.com/news/20010117-30784.cfm?bmLocale=en_US
that showed they have less than 20% market share in the 651+cc bikes in Japan+Austraila (not broken out by country) which showed a DECLINE on Harley's part in being able to sell into that market.
And interestingly enough, all the Harley fans who think the workers are the key to the success, it is interesting how you have forgotten the 45% tarriff surcharge slapped on imported heavyweight motorcycles in 1983. Yes, it took Reagan's protectionsim to prop up Harley.
The bikes that I always notice in Japan, besides the thousands of Rice Rockets and Crotch Rockets, is the XL/XT type of on-road/off-road bikes. I doubt, other than sidewalks, they ever get to be off the road.
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