Ukraine / Russia

[Irrelevant]

Key Moments in the Cuban Missile Crisis | HISTORY

These are the steps that brought the United States and Soviet Union to the brink of nuclear war in 1962.

www.history.com

A good family friend was stationed in Key West at the naval station at the time. He said the tension was so thick you didn't want to fart for fear of starting WWIII.

 

[antlerradar]

But with a role reversal from cold war 1.0. Now it is Russia that needs help from China.

And at the risk of getting too philosophical, frankly, I wonder how much Russia or China want to project true power beyond their closest bordering neighbors. I would guess they would both be fairly happy to leave the western hemisphere and non-slavic Europe to the US if the US would let them have their own regional spheres of control, with Africa and the middle east being non-aligned raw material sources for all. The desire to push one's own form of governement and lifestyle on every other corner of the planet seems to be a uniquely anglo-saxon impulse. Under this view - the 1950's drive to spread communism would be seen as a one-time exception to Russian and Chinese general world views.

I think the Arabs did a fairly good job of pushing there point of view at the point of a sword at one time, So did the Mongols.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

And also why their energy cost are some of the highest in the world.

German consumers experience biggest rise ever in gas and power prices in 2021 | Clean Energy Wire

www.cleanenergywire.org

"Power prices in Germany already are among the highest in the world, even though the country ranges in the European mid-field if prices are seen as a fraction of disposable income. Irrespective of the effects of the Europe-wide price hike in gas prices, the cost distribution of climate action due to higher CO2 prices and other emissions reduction measures have led to intensifying debates in the country about the conditions for a “just transition” towards climate neutrality."

Yep. Trade offs. Everywhere and always.

I've been vacillating on this topic...

On the one hand the US is the world's largest NG producer, everyone is talking about the price of Oil right now, but the gas differential between the US and Europe, which has always been huge, especially when looking at WTI v. BRENT is nothing compared to Gas.

I think from a geopolitical perspective we should have invested in east coast terminals, and permitted/built the Dominion lines out of the Marcellus 5 years ago.


On the flip side I wonder if a strong economic relationship between Russia and Europe is actually a good thing. Do we really want Russia to be behind an iron curtain, is economic isolation a good thing? Isn't that one of the things that liberalized the USSR, increased trade and economics... to that end China as well?

Perestroika... anyone?

Isn't the fact that we can even try sanctions, and have them even have a chance, a product of strong economic ties?

Isn't true that the real reason we likely won't go to war with China anytime soon the fact that we by 1/2 a trillion $s a year of goods from them, not just that we both have nukes?


I don't have an answer...

 

[406dn]

A good family friend was stationed in Key West at the naval station at the time. He said the tension was so thick you didn't want to fart for fear of starting WWIII.

As I mentioned earlier, my father was in the Air Force at the time. The tension was pegged out.

We were well accustomed to the Air Base being on alert. But this time it felt totally different. I was fairly convinced that all hell was going to break loose.

 

[Nameless Range]

I've been vacillating on this topic...

On the one hand the US is the world's largest NG producer, everyone is talking about the price of Oil right now, but the gas differential between the US and Europe, which has always been huge, especially when looking at WTI v. BRENT is nothing compared to Gas.
View attachment 214045
I think from a geopolitical perspective we should have invested in east coast terminals, and permitted/built the Dominion lines out of the Marcellus 5 years ago.


On the flip side I wonder if a strong economic relationship between Russia and Europe is actually a good thing. Do we really want Russia to be behind an iron curtain, is economic isolation a good thing? Isn't that one of the things that liberalized the USSR, increased trade and economics... to that end China as well?

Perestroika... anyone?

Isn't the fact that we can even try sanctions, and have them even have a chance, a product of strong economic ties?

Isn't true that the real reason we likely won't go to war with China anytime soon the fact that we by 1/2 a trillion $s a year of goods from them, not just that we both have nukes?


I don't have an answer...

The counter to this is that there was a thought 30 years ago that allowing China a larger role in the world trade market would liberalize them. As Bill Clinton said regarding China joining the WTO, “By joining the WTO, China is not simply agreeing to import more of our products, it is agreeing to import one of democracy’s most cherished values: economic freedom. When individuals have the power…to realize their dreams, they will demand a greater say.”

Turns out they have done nothing but reap the benefits of the world's markets, stole their intellectual property, and are as authoritarian as ever- arguably dystopian. They also have us by the balls economically because of it.


I am not arguing nor an expert. That's all I know, but I recently listened to a podcast about this and it was interesting if not compelling that inviting someone into your economic world is ground to tread on carefully. Nothing corrupts people and principles like money.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think the Arabs did a fairly good job of pushing there point of view at the point of a sword at one time, So did the Mongols.

My focus was on last 400 years, but ya.

 

[SAJ-99]

I've been vacillating on this topic...

On the one hand the US is the world's largest NG producer, everyone is talking about the price of Oil right now, but the gas differential between the US and Europe, which has always been huge, especially when looking at WTI v. BRENT is nothing compared to Gas.
View attachment 214045
I think from a geopolitical perspective we should have invested in east coast terminals, and permitted/built the Dominion lines out of the Marcellus 5 years ago.


On the flip side I wonder if a strong economic relationship between Russia and Europe is actually a good thing. Do we really want Russia to be behind an iron curtain, is economic isolation a good thing? Isn't that one of the things that liberalized the USSR, increased trade and economics... to that end China as well?

Perestroika... anyone?

Isn't the fact that we can even try sanctions, and have them even have a chance, a product of strong economic ties?

Isn't true that the real reason we likely won't go to war with China anytime soon the fact that we by 1/2 a trillion $s a year of goods from them, not just that we both have nukes?


I don't have an answer...

The thinking when it was done was to bring Russia in and tie them up economically so they do less stupid stuff. Great thought, I guess. That is why I don't think America (and Americans) should be telling any other country how to make decision about energy security. America is great because of its natural resources. The worst hardship for us is $5/gal gasoline.

And at the risk of getting too philosophical, frankly, I wonder how much Russia or China want to project true power beyond their closest bordering neighbors. I would guess they would both be fairly happy to leave the western hemisphere and non-slavic Europe to the US if the US would let them have their own regional spheres of control,

I think this is more of Putin wanting to be seen as a BSD around the world. Zelensky went from a joke - comedian elected president - to a Globally respected and admired bad ass in a few days. That has to drive Putin absolutely crazy. It would make sense that Putin sent thugs in to assassinate him.

Putin continues to use the "don't come at me bro, I got nukes" as a way to keep the world guessing what-if. No one really wants to know how serious he might be, but he loves the attention and respect. I'm think that most of the oligarchs love money more than they love Putin, so that is a ray of hope.

 

[SAJ-99]

This is no longer the Russia of stoic indifference after your fourth child has died from an easily defeated disease.

It is this Russia:

For some reason, once it starts you just can't look away.

 

[Potsie]

According to the AP a Major General from Russia was killed early in the fighting...

Live updates: Johnson to seek UN Security Council meeting

The office of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson says he will seek an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting after Russian troops in Ukraine attacked a nuclear power plant and sparked a fire.

apnews.com

Makes me wonder how a highly decorated Maj. Gen. was killed in the fighting? And that no details were provided from Russia - like if he had been in the front of his men leading etc. etc. etc. it would be most honorable comrade Maj. Gen lallalalalalaaa. The fact that there's no details, and no comment from Russia makes me think someone spoke out, like "hey, why are we doing this..." and got clipped.

 

[406dn]

Another day, another yacht seized. This time France did the honors.

France seizes mega-yacht linked to Putin ally

France seized a mega-yacht linked to an ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday as the western world seeks to punish the Kremlin and its allies amid its invasion of Ukraine. The y…

thehill.com

 

[Point Creep]

 

[Deleted member 28227]

The counter to this is that there was a thought 30 years ago that allowing China a larger role in the world trade market would liberalize them. As Bill Clinton said regarding China joining the WTO, “By joining the WTO, China is not simply agreeing to import more of our products, it is agreeing to import one of democracy’s most cherished values: economic freedom. When individuals have the power…to realize their dreams, they will demand a greater say.”

Turns out they have done nothing but reap the benefits of the world's markets, stole their intellectual property, and are as authoritarian as ever- arguably dystopian. They also have us by the balls economically because of it.


I am not arguing nor an expert. That's all I know, but I recently listened to a podcast about this and it was interesting if not compelling that inviting someone into your economic world is ground to tread on carefully. Nothing corrupts people and principles like money.

I think if your looking for China and Russian to turn into the US because of trade you're foolish, but I think there is still a strong argument that very interconnected economies prevents war.

It ain't gonna be ice cream and chachas but hopefully we don't start swinging with nukes.

 

[BigHornRam]

Liked this one.

The captain of an oil tanker refused to refuel a Russian ship to protest Ukraine's invasion. The crew is 'very proud,' his wife says.

Insider spoke with the wife of the captain of a Georgian oil tanker who refused to give fuel to the Russian ship.

www.businessinsider.com

"Are you from Russia?"

When the ship said yes, he responded: "I see, a ship from Russia. We refuse to refuel you ... Russian ship, go f**k yourself," an apparent reference to the message sent by border guards on Ukraine's Zmiinyi Island who refused to surrender to Russia days earlier.

The owner of the Russian ship who requested the refuel is not clear.

"Guys, leave the politics. We are almost out of fuel," the Russians can be heard responding.

"Well if you're almost out of fuel, you have oars — row!" Lasha said, adding: "Glory to the heroes, glory to Ukraine!"

 

[Addicting]

A good family friend was stationed in Key West at the naval station at the time. He said the tension was so thick you didn't want to fart for fear of starting WWIII.

I’ve met some folks where a burrito could cause Chemical warfare to the likes you never seen before. Lol

 

[Nameless Range]

Pretty interesting little thread on the history of the Soviet War with Finland and the similarities we may be seeing now:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1498989078649389059

 

[antlerradar]

My focus was on last 400 years, but ya.

I think it has more to do with economic power and military might, in the last 400 years most of the power has been concentrated in places dominated by Anglo-saxons. I would bet if you could go back in time you would find conflicts long since forgotten were the powerful tribes of Africa and North America also pushed there point of view on the weaker tribes with the point of a spear.
Imperial Japan would be a good example of a non Anglo-saxon country that pushed its weight around.

 

[VikingsGuy]

According to the AP a Major General from Russia was killed early in the fighting...

View attachment 214048

Live updates: Johnson to seek UN Security Council meeting

The office of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson says he will seek an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting after Russian troops in Ukraine attacked a nuclear power plant and sparked a fire.

apnews.com

Makes me wonder how a highly decorated Maj. Gen. was killed in the fighting? And that no details were provided from Russia - like if he had been in the front of his men leading etc. etc. etc. it would be most honorable comrade Maj. Gen lallalalalalaaa. The fact that there's no details, and no comment from Russia makes me think someone spoke out, like "hey, why are we doing this..." and got clipped.

You’ve got US Vietnam-style troops cleaning things up and Stalin-style staff restructuring. Could be either.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think it has more to do with economic power and military might, in the last 400 years most of the power has been concentrated in places dominated by Anglo-saxons. I would bet if you could go back in time you would find conflicts long since forgotten were the powerful tribes of Africa and North America also pushed there point of view on the weaker tribes with the point of a spear.

It could also be the prominent proselytizing angles in Christianity and Islam. Add to the the Anglo-Saxon inheritance structure that made all the sons after the first born useless so they had to go out and get something of their own.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think it has more to do with economic power and military might, in the last 400 years most of the power has been concentrated in places dominated by Anglo-saxons. I would bet if you could go back in time you would find conflicts long since forgotten were the powerful tribes of Africa and North America also pushed there point of view on the weaker tribes with the point of a spear.
Imperial Japan would be a good example of a non Anglo-saxon country that pushed its weight around.

The Mongols at one point occupied most of the known world, the Chinese had fleets that made the Spanish Armada look like bathtub toys and the Empires of the Americas were building cities that housed hundreds of thousands while engaging in trade across their region, down to South America and up to North America. The Mayans, as were the Olmecs, Aztecs, Inca, etc all built technologically advanced empires long before the rise of Anglo-Saxon dominance in western Europe.

The Egyptians & their dynasties, the tribes of Central and Southeastern Asia who built cities and palaces that dwarfed anything that was being built in Europe in the 14th Century, etc. Hannibal led the Carthaginian army across the Alps while riding an elephant in 218 BC, long before the Western Tribes were more than barbarians eating rotted flesh off of bog beast they recently had named "cow."

Imperial Japan didn't push it's weight around until the Meiji period and post industrialization, after the great peace of the early Edo period. Japan's war-like nature though was in full swing from the early 1000's to the mid 1600's or so, though. Japan did start a war with Korea over pottery though, and for that, I give them all the stars.

 

[BigHornRam]

The Mongols at one point occupied most of the known world, the Chinese had fleets that made the Spanish Armada look like bathtub toys and the Empires of the Americas were building cities that housed hundreds of thousands while engaging in trade across their region, down to South America and up to North America. The Mayans, as were the Olmecs, Aztecs, Inca, etc all built technologically advanced empires long before the rise of Anglo-Saxon dominance in western Europe.

The Egyptians & their dynasties, the tribes of Central and Southeastern Asia who built cities and palaces that dwarfed anything that was being built in Europe in the 14th Century, etc. Hannibal led the Carthaginian army across the Alps while riding an elephant in 218 BC, long before the Western Tribes were more than barbarians eating rotted flesh off of bog beast they recently had named "cow."

Imperial Japan didn't push it's weight around until the Meiji period and post industrialization, after the great peace of the early Edo period. Japan's war-like nature though was in full swing from the early 1000's to the mid 1600's or so, though. Japan did start a war with Korea over pottery though, and for that, I give them all the stars.

Bottom line. Throughout history, humans like to fight.