I know here in IN we usually kill 120,000 deer. I would bet that more than 80% of that is out of a treestand.
Truth or BS? Jack O'Connor Edition 2
- Thread starter Ben Long
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Nameless Range
Well-known member
So much goes into "getting a really outstanding whitetail head", whether it be management, terrain, time of year, gear, transportation, etc. that this will always be debatable.
For example, I know a coyote is not a "game animal", but, coyotes are relatively "easy to kill", yet, I would argue they are *smarter* than any of the North American ungulates. So, intelligence in a critter doesn't necessarily equate to difficulty in killing.
If all else is equal though, I think Connor is largely right, given that the whitetail being hunted is a mountain whitetail, and not a confined and easily patterned river-bottom whitetail.
For example, I know a coyote is not a "game animal", but, coyotes are relatively "easy to kill", yet, I would argue they are *smarter* than any of the North American ungulates. So, intelligence in a critter doesn't necessarily equate to difficulty in killing.
If all else is equal though, I think Connor is largely right, given that the whitetail being hunted is a mountain whitetail, and not a confined and easily patterned river-bottom whitetail.
Damn! Maybe I'm the one off, interesting numbers.
Sioux33
Well-known member
Hardest to kill..yes, funnest to hunt...absolutely not. I grew up deer hunting all my life and went on my first western elk /muley hunt and made me wonder if I should ever spend my time sitting, wishing, waiting for a whitetail to walk under me again. Seems like whitetails are way more nocturnal and skittish than anything else and I'd much rather spot and stalk or call to an animal than sit in a stand all day.
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
Sioux33
I don't disagree, but I think the perspective of the western whitetail hunter (and probably Jack O'Connor) is pretty different that most midwestern folks. Open country/Mountain whitetail hunting is way more like hunting mulies, than MW whitetails.
I don't disagree, but I think the perspective of the western whitetail hunter (and probably Jack O'Connor) is pretty different that most midwestern folks. Open country/Mountain whitetail hunting is way more like hunting mulies, than MW whitetails.
Flatland Crusoe
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Has anyone considered that's the type of comment you say to make 80% of your readers feel good about their version of hunting and keep listening to you.
No doubt whitetails have their moments, but they title they should have is the most overrated species to hunt nationwide.
No doubt whitetails have their moments, but they title they should have is the most overrated species to hunt nationwide.
Topgun 30-06
Active member
Say what, LOL?!!!
Bowhuntrben
Well-known member
Hunting in SE MN, I agree that most deer in our area are shot from treestands or ground blinds (with the exception of those shot on drives). Our area doesn't lend itself to hunting western-style. It is largely private land, and we don't have the area to roam around looking for animals. Add to that, a deer is going to know you're coming long before you can ever see it in my area and will likely be gone before you get there.
Though deer are abundant, it doesn't mean big bucks are abundant. There is far more hunting pressure in my area than any OTC area I have been in Colorado, so having a deer live long enough to get to be a big deer is not that easy.
I do think the archery season opens too early in most areas which does make deer VERY patternable. In this case, it is too easy to get a big buck IMO. Outside of this early season, the deer in our area (large bucks) are not very patternable during daylight hours. You can often figure out where they are living, but you have no way of going in there and getting them without scaring them. During the rut, they will often move onto another piece of property which you can't hunt, so targeting a specific animal can be a fruitless effort.
In my western hunts, I haven't seen a terrible lot of elk, but the ones I have seen do let you get away with a lot of things a deer where I hunt in MN wouldn't let you get away with. The same is true with mule deer I have seen. Finding western game animals is much more difficult for me, but I don't live there and am unable to spend a lot of time scouting and learning the animal and the area. Because of my lack of experience and ability to scout, western animals are more difficult to hunt for me.
Bottom line, all animals have their own thing that makes them challenging to hunt. A B&C animal is difficult to get no matter what the species and hunting method when you're hunting in heavily hunted areas. I do think an old whitetail doe is one of the smartest animals out there, though. They are way smarter than any buck and always seem to know when something doesn't fit in
Though deer are abundant, it doesn't mean big bucks are abundant. There is far more hunting pressure in my area than any OTC area I have been in Colorado, so having a deer live long enough to get to be a big deer is not that easy.
I do think the archery season opens too early in most areas which does make deer VERY patternable. In this case, it is too easy to get a big buck IMO. Outside of this early season, the deer in our area (large bucks) are not very patternable during daylight hours. You can often figure out where they are living, but you have no way of going in there and getting them without scaring them. During the rut, they will often move onto another piece of property which you can't hunt, so targeting a specific animal can be a fruitless effort.
In my western hunts, I haven't seen a terrible lot of elk, but the ones I have seen do let you get away with a lot of things a deer where I hunt in MN wouldn't let you get away with. The same is true with mule deer I have seen. Finding western game animals is much more difficult for me, but I don't live there and am unable to spend a lot of time scouting and learning the animal and the area. Because of my lack of experience and ability to scout, western animals are more difficult to hunt for me.
Bottom line, all animals have their own thing that makes them challenging to hunt. A B&C animal is difficult to get no matter what the species and hunting method when you're hunting in heavily hunted areas. I do think an old whitetail doe is one of the smartest animals out there, though. They are way smarter than any buck and always seem to know when something doesn't fit in
What a well thought out and put together response. Thank you Topgun 30-06, for adding so much to the conversation.
I think there's probably a good deal of merit in the first part of your comment Flatland.
I would imagine the percentage of deer killed from treestands is like that for most all states east of the Big Muddy. A lot of the states south and/or east of Indiana kill a lot more deer than we Hoosiers do. Some states, literally have no limits on the number of deer you can kill a year. No offense, but it's probably a bit hard to comprehend if one's never hunted in these states. There are LOTS of deer, in places, but it's hard to get access to LOTS of places. Public ground can hold deer, but generally not to the extend that private ground does. That's one of the reasons you see so many 'easterners' looking for private land access when looking at first trip west regardless of the species. Here folks are almost conditioned to believe that private land automatically equals better.
If you ever have the hankering to give hunting here a try I'd be more than willing to have you in our camp. You can get a buck and 2 doe tags as an NR for $300.
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Ben Long
Well-known member
This is a great conversation. Thanks everyone.
O'Connor wasn't the only one to have that type of sentiment. IIRC, Fred Bear said something along the lines if a whitetail ever learned to live in the country that mountain goats do, you'd never kill one.
Flatland Crusoe
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I think the regional experience really matters and the style of hunt determines how someone feels about the difficulty of hunting a species. It's nearly impossible to isolate the external artificial factors that determine how someone hunts game.
As someone that grew up in the Midwest, I was amazed when one of my roommates from Western South Dakota said that he preferred Whitetails far over Mule deer. At the time I had never hunted west of eastern Kansas and from reading outdoor magazines, mule deer seemed like the pinnacle of the western style of hunting.
For me whitetail hunting was largely the realm of the opening weekend, same treestand every year rifle hunter whose entire year of hunting experience lasted 36 hours. The quality of hunter and the skills required to whitetail hunt with a firearm in the Midwest boil down to how much private land did they have access too? After a site is selected, only basic hunting skill is required to be successful if an opportunity presents itself.
My experience is that Whitetails intelligence shows up in their ability to create a situation where their senses make it nearly impossible to approach them like on the tip of a ridge with the wind blowing everything to them while they look down nearly impassable side hills downwind of their position.
From what I have seen both Whitetail bucks and Mule Deer bucks are not something you see in passing while not hunting outside of November while does are everywhere in visible groups year round. I think in late September while antelope hunting Wyoming we saw about 50 mule deer does for every buck and I wouldn't place whitetails in the midwest as vastly different outside of the rut.
As someone that grew up in the Midwest, I was amazed when one of my roommates from Western South Dakota said that he preferred Whitetails far over Mule deer. At the time I had never hunted west of eastern Kansas and from reading outdoor magazines, mule deer seemed like the pinnacle of the western style of hunting.
For me whitetail hunting was largely the realm of the opening weekend, same treestand every year rifle hunter whose entire year of hunting experience lasted 36 hours. The quality of hunter and the skills required to whitetail hunt with a firearm in the Midwest boil down to how much private land did they have access too? After a site is selected, only basic hunting skill is required to be successful if an opportunity presents itself.
My experience is that Whitetails intelligence shows up in their ability to create a situation where their senses make it nearly impossible to approach them like on the tip of a ridge with the wind blowing everything to them while they look down nearly impassable side hills downwind of their position.
From what I have seen both Whitetail bucks and Mule Deer bucks are not something you see in passing while not hunting outside of November while does are everywhere in visible groups year round. I think in late September while antelope hunting Wyoming we saw about 50 mule deer does for every buck and I wouldn't place whitetails in the midwest as vastly different outside of the rut.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
..very well said.
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