The war in Iraq.

[Delw]

I am not what would be considered a liberal. I am beginning to have my doubts about the purpose of this "war" in Iraq. Too many good men and women are being killed fighting a limited war. This is too similar to another limited war in which I lost several very close friends. Perhaps it's time that we turned most of that country into a kill zone and began some serious ass whipping or we got the hell out.

Dan funny that you mention that, Oscar and I were talking about it a couple of days ago. I support the war and what and why we are doing it but like you I am having my doubts, not just due to this latest one but all of them its not a fair fight , we are fighting with our hands tied behind our back and blind folded.

let me try to explain.
you goto war people are going to die friends family etc thats pretty much a givin. What bothers me is that this is not a fair war. we have to be extreamly careful in the way we do things as not to upset, ruin or kill anyone in that country. You were in Viet nam, you know what it was like so you will pretty much understand, I just know from the stories I heard from you and my dad and many people that I have known. women would pick up guns and shoot at Americans, kids would do the same. you just can't trust anyone.
its ever worse in iraq, I have alot of close friends over there fighting friends that I fish with and one of them is my neighbor he told me all the BS.
Our troops are walking on eggshells, if they shoot someone they suspect is bad they better be able to prove it if not they get court martialed (sp) or hung out to dry by the media and the liberals.
this cause second guessing, second guessing is not a good thing when it comes to people with guns, it slows your reflex time down. and in turn you get shot and or killed.
they need to do something and they need to do it quickly or its going to be like this for the next 10 years with no accomplishment.
They need to be told that if you think its bad shoot to kill, no matter if its a 14 year old kid carrying a ak-47 or a 25 year old pregnat lady with a bomb strapped to her side. if you believe someone is in that mosc(sp) that is bad, BLOW the *&%&&%$ thing up, we will not hold you accountable for a mistake when you fear for your life or others around you.
In a war inoccent people get killed its a reality face it. women children and the elderly will be included. shit happens but you need to protect yourself and everyone else in your squad.

these guys are trained to kill people, not second guess people. This is the military not the police dept. go in there clean house and be done with it, if inocent bystanders get killed so be it. its a freaking war not a riot or a drug deal.

you have the stupid bitchs like paulosi and clinton and a bunch of other liberals saying "bring the troops home".
you know what lets do it there way, lets bring them all home and sit back and watch. when our citizens start to get killed in car bombs, shopping malls and office building , then we go to clinton and paulosi and stretch there necks until they pop off for not letting the military due the right job.
these f-in idiots are just turning this into something to get elected with and they are doing a pretty damn good job of it.

This was never bush's fault and if anyone really believes it they are a lieing fool , bush our generals and most of the citizens of America wanted to go in there and crush the shit out of them get it done and over with. our government mainly the liberals is what made this war next to impossible to fight, just like a few other battles in the past.

The even scareir part of this whole thing is that the liberals are probally going to win the election due to this war. They are the ones that made it into the fiasco it is now and yet a bunch of stupid ass americans are going to vote them in. maybe they need to think before they vote like what did clinto or palouse(sp) or any liberal do to help this war. Ha they did nothing but bitch whine, complain and put the blame on people. F-em

 

[Delw]

I moved the post here as I shouldn't have wrote on oscars post about his friend.

 

[JoseCuervo]

This was never bush's fault and if anyone really believes it they are a lieing fool , bush our generals and most of the citizens of America wanted to go in there and crush the shit out of them get it done and over with. our government mainly the liberals is what made this war next to impossible to fight, just like a few other battles in the past.

Del,
This WAS Dubya's fault. He was the one that rushed to war in Iraq (please don't mix up Afghanistan and Iraq). Despite no credible links to 9/11, despite NO WMD's, etc.. etc....

And please don't blame "our government" for limiting Dubya and his Generals. Dubya had a GOP controlled Congress, GOP appointees managing the Pentagon, and GOP putzes in every adminstrative role. If you want to blame the Government, make sure you BLAME Dubya for his role in putting people in those places (remember what a failure Bremer was in Iraq? remember what a failure Wolfowitz was, and STILL is? ).

If you studied Viet Nam and Iraq, you would understand the reason we "didn't win" was because the "enemy" has nothing to lose. They are willing to sustain casualities forever, as it is their homeland that they are trying to defend. Just as you would expect the American people to fight to repel an Occupying Force, so do these people.

The War of Terror was won, remember when Dubya landed on the Aircraft Carrier? That was the point in time we won. But, since Dubya and Company had no clue how to be an occupying force, they ended up creating enemies from the people who initially greeted them as Liberators.

 

[ELKCHSR]

This WAS Dubya's fault. He was the one that rushed to war in Iraq

LOL, he was looking at the same data that all the others who voted for this war and then voted against it were looking at during the time of decision making

To think any thing else is just bearing your head in the sand and not looking at any thing but the CNN polls of recent history

I don't remember 100% but I believe there were only one or two poor souls who voted against it in the beginning

But now because of the fickle public having a say, they are backsliding and don't have the stomach to see any thing to completion

History has shown that you can't let the general populace have a part in such heavy decisions, even in the voting booths

 

[BuzzH]

Anyone that sees a positive in Iraq is an idiot. No WMD's, no Democracy, the average Iraq citizen has power to his house 5-6 hours a day, billions in oil revenue missing, US military personel being killed, maimed, and kidnapped, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Its a mess, and Dubya isnt going to fix it, he wont be held accountable for it either. He should be.

Rest assured that Dubya will gracefully leave office and leave a big damned mess for someone else to clean up.

What a joke.

I know what will help...more time and another three quarters of a trillion dollars...several thousand more American lives. While we're at it we'll let Shrub fire and hire some more personel to manage his terror war. Lets just keep giving shrub more chances, sooner or later, he'll get it right...maybe in 6 more years????

 

[ELKCHSR]

The primeries are coming soon

Maybe there should be some one else on the ticket that has all the answers...

 

[BuzzH]

Invading Iraq for Bin Laden leveling the WTC was a great idea.

If you're just going to invade random countries for Bin Ladens actions...why not somewhere cool like New Zealand or Canada?

I'm sure Rove and Wolfowitz could have directed the CIA to find a little something...

 

[ELKCHSR]

What I'm getting at is it wasn't just Bush or Rumsfeld (sp) but pretty much the whole world including almost the entire Democrat party, I'm assuming they needed to start some where and Iraq was the target of the day

I just don't remember much if any dissention in the ranks on either side when we were getting ready to send troops, including the time it was taking to get the staging in place, it wasn't done in a day and the news was leaking every thing they could get their hands onto the daily news

 

[BuzzH]

Really?

Were you playing rip-VanWinkle when we invaded Iraq?

Must have been...the only other country in the world supporting invading Iraq was Britain?

If the rest of the world was all gung-ho...why didnt they send their military? Why havent they spent 750 billion?

Instead of guessing what was being "leaked by the media"...you should have actually taken the time to READ what was being written.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I never said gung ho and as with most of these countries, they're willing to 'say' they're for some thing, giving only lip service not wanting to stand up to be counted (unless of course the team is winning), hedging their bets with their fingers in the air to see which way the wind blows, jumping sides the second the one side is stumbling

Most people won't take a solid stance on any thing, you of all people should know this, beating your head against the wall half the time trying to get others to see what you see and not getting much response except that you need to keep up the good work...

 

[Delw]

Geeze I love to stir shit.

but Jose while your pretty much wrong on everything you posted, you are right about this.

If you studied Viet Nam and Iraq, you would understand the reason we "didn't win" was because the "enemy" has nothing to lose. They are willing to sustain casualities forever, as it is their homeland that they are trying to defend. Just as you would expect the American people to fight to repel an Occupying Force, so do these people.

 

[Delw]

Anyone that sees a positive in Iraq is an idiot. No WMD's, no Democracy, the average Iraq citizen has power to his house 5-6 hours a day, billions in oil revenue missing, US military personel being killed, maimed, and kidnapped, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Its a mess, and Dubya isnt going to fix it, he wont be held accountable for it either. He should be.

Rest assured that Dubya will gracefully leave office and leave a big damned mess for someone else to clean up.

What a joke.

I know what will help...more time and another three quarters of a trillion dollars...several thousand more American lives. While we're at it we'll let Shrub fire and hire some more personel to manage his terror war. Lets just keep giving shrub more chances, sooner or later, he'll get it right...maybe in 6 more years????

I don't think anyone ever said there was a positive in Iraq,
He can't fix it al long as people don't want him to fix it,

anyone who thinks that he just sent them over there for the hell of it is ( in your own words) is an idiot

Buzz, all the intell they had said there was WMD's, bush didnt make up the intel, it was reported when clinton was pres that iraq had WMD's. Also the UN was pushing for something to be done about Iraq for breaking all the rules as well, but like most idiots and Cowards they failed to do anything about it. we'll they didnt really they knew that the bush admin. would. then after they voted to do something. the backed down like most cowards and france would do.
it was also in clintons administartion that Iraq was breaking all the nuke rules and every other rule no fly zone's etc.. clinton was to much of a pussy to do anything about it, and he was giving the chinese secrets for election money, and helping Monica burn a cigar, what a guy.


the bottom libne we should all be asking is our country safer now than it was before the 911 deal....
answer yes and no.
yes in a since that security is alot heavier. no in a sence that when people try to make the USA safe the democrata and liberals of this country cry foul.
case in point open boarders, if people can get through with drugs they certainly can get through with a bomb.
Oh and to be fair I am not happy with bush and his boarder policy but its a hell of alot better than paulosi clintons and mc Pain want.


Delw

 

[ELKCHSR]

perfect...

 

[Nemont]

The War of Terror was won, remember when Dubya landed on the Aircraft Carrier? That was the point in time we won.

You should work for a Politician. That is one of the best spins I have seen in quite a while. Victory in the global war on terror was not declared that day.

I have been a supporter of the war because I feel it at a personal level with family having served. My brother is headed back for his third tour in August.

I think that any ardent war supporter has to see the hand writing on the wall that if GWB doesn't begin to wind down combat operations then congress will. The only approval rating lower the GWB's is Congress's approval rating. In a representative Republic the people have the power. They voted against the war in Nov. 2006. I think that every Senator and Congressmen is getting an earful in their home districts that patience has run out amongst the moderate, middle of the road voters. That is the most important demographic that the Pols listen to. The extreme ends, left or right, will vote their party no matter who is running, those staked out in the middle that can be swayed are moving left and turn against the war.

It is only a matter of time. Moderate Republicans and Blue Dog Dems will be holding sway over the extremist on both sides in Congress and the President may find that suddenly there are enough votes to begin overriding his veto power.

As the decider GWB will have to ulitimately have history decide his legacy. He is the CIC and fair or not, right or wrong he has to take responsibilty. I would add that all those calling to leave Iraq should also be prepared to accept responsibilty for the ensuing chaos and death toll. I doubt any will but they should.

Nemont

 

[sreekers]

I generally stay out of these types of forums, but oh well here it goes.

Problem number one with going to war in our Post-Modern generation is that we are afraid to declare someone a clear cut winner, and someone a clear cut loser. This has been the case since Vietnam, nobody wants to tell anybody they are wrong. Frankly I like the way we live as Americans, and think everyone on this site does. Now if we want to keep living that way there is a cost, and to keep that it may just be flat our ugly what happens.

Next thing, and I may take a lot of flack for this, but here it goes. If we are going to go to war, tell us we are, be honest about the costs, and honest about the reasons. If we are going for oil, lets go for oil, if its about wmd, lets go for that. I guess just be honest with us. I like having the rights and privelages that I have here. If we are going to go to war, lets at least admit why we do it. I personally am tired of people outside of our country and states dictating the way we do things, such as Bib Laden(causing fear, tree huggers not allowing us to manage game within the state, etc.).

Ok, i will get off of the soap box now. Just to state how I feel, I think we need to finish properly in Iraq because we are there. I think we should have taken more time in going, but that is in the past and nothing we can do about it now.

 

[JoseCuervo]

As the decider GWB will have to ulitimately have history decide his legacy. He is the CIC and fair or not, right or wrong he has to take responsibilty. Nemont

Exactly. The problem is, if you read Del and the Cheese, you will see they blame EVERYONE but Dubya. And instead of listening to the people, his handlers kept him isolated. Good grief, Dubya came to Idaho, the most right-wing, red-neck state in the country, supports the guy huge at the voting booth, and who did Dubya's handlers allow in to his speech at the Idaho Center???? Do you think they allowed the Citizens of Idaho to hear the President? No..... Dubya's handlers only allowed the Nat'l Guard and the Guard's families so as to assure nothing but polite applause from an audience under Orders to provide polite applause.

 

[JoseCuervo]

History has shown that you can't let the general populace have a part in such heavy decisions

Does anybody else see the reasons why our society should make education and hardhats MANDATORY? I think the above statement shows the dangers of a lack of either of those items.

 

[Nemont]

Jose,

I believe there is a difference between taking responsibility and being blamed.

GWB is responsible for going to war with Iraq, after the majority in both houses authorized the action. He is blamed for bad intel regarding WMD (nearly every major country's Intel guys also believed Iraq has WMD).

GWB is responsible for getting it wrong. Iraq is a cluster now and as CIC he has to take responsibility for it being a cluster. Had Iraq gone perfectly he would be basking in the glory. He is blamed for all mistakes made on the ground when many, many of them came directly from Rumsfeld in the Pentagon. Rummy should have been gone after the IED in Iraq following GWB's carrier landing. Again GWB should take responsibilty for keeping Rummy and should even be questioned of being too stubborn, as for blame Rummy should get alot, not all, but alot of the blame for creating the situation on the ground.

I believe the GWB made the decision to go to war in Iraq based upon what he thought was best for the country. I don't believe he went into Iraq for oil or any other the other reasons stated. If the decision ended up not being what was best for the country then he has responsibility for that decision and he will have to live with the consquences of this decisions for the rest of his life. I don't think he enjoys seeing all the death and destruction over there.

As 2007 progresses GWB will have less and less influence. Congress will turn because of the looming 2008 elections. Then in January 2009 GWB will be out of office and at his home in Texas, I doubt he will be much in demand on the speaking circuit.

Nemont

 

[Curly]

Exactly. The problem is, if you read Del and the Cheese, you will see they blame EVERYONE but Dubya.

I didn't read their comments that way (blaming EVERYONE but GW).

Del's comments were right on the money.

I don't think everyone (including GW) thinks that he has made all the best decisions. But the fight over there would be much easier if all the fighting over here wasn't going on. Don't you think it gives the enemy more reason to continue their efforts when they see congress trying to force a pullout?

It seems that the Dems want the war to fail so that they can blame Bush and the Republicans so that they can gain more control. If everyone got behind this war effort, then the war would have a better chance of ending sooner.

Bush and company have been wrong too in trying to fight a politically correct war. Bush should pardon the soldiers that have been put in prison for shooting "innocent" people. Those soldiers have a difficult job to do over there and should be allowed more liberal rules of engagement.

I suspect the polically correct fighting that they have been forced to do over there comes from trying to keep the liberals from crying about some of the unfortunate accidents that happen in war. So, I'm not going to lay all the blame for the politcal correctness on Bush.........a lot of the blame needs to go to the liberals.

 

[JoseCuervo]

But the fight over there would be much easier if all the fighting over here wasn't going on. Don't you think it gives the enemy more reason to continue their efforts when they see congress trying to force a pullout?

There has not been that much fighting over here. For the first 3 years of Dubya's War of Terror, the Media fell all over themselves to report "happy crap" and all the politicians made speeches "supporting the troops", everybody's cars had Yellow Ribbon magnets on them. It was only after finding the extent of the lies from Dubya did the support begin to wane. If you missed all the support, you were likely living in a cave.

It seems that the Dems want the war to fail so that they can blame Bush and the Republicans so that they can gain more control. If everyone got behind this war effort, then the war would have a better chance of ending sooner.

What more do you want to get behind? How many billions of Dollars of funding have been spent? Would more happy crap pieces of news stories make you feel better?

Bush should pardon the soldiers that have been put in prison for shooting "innocent" people. Those soldiers have a difficult job to do over there and should be allowed more liberal rules of engagement.

Do you really think allowing an Occupying force to kill more "innocent" people will facilitate the indigent people to support the Occupiers? And how much more "liberal" should we be than G'tmo and the other "Secret Prisons" in Europe that we use to detain people for years?

I suspect the polically correct fighting that they have been forced to do over there comes from trying to keep the liberals from crying about some of the unfortunate accidents that happen in war. So, I'm not going to lay all the blame for the politcal correctness on Bush.........a lot of the blame needs to go to the liberals.

That is pretty funny how you credit the minority party that was out of office/power in all 3 branches of our goverment with that much influence..... Yeppers, don't blame Dubya and his hacks/handlers who were in charge....