The "CWD is a HOAX" movement is building

[Boondocks]

How about we get you some CWD-positive venison and you feed it to your grandkids for a few years? At least that would demonstrate conviction.

I have no idea whether CWD actually exists or is merely exaggerated for political purposes. All I know is the strategic value exists and people I don't trust want me to believe in it. It seems I have run afoul of the thought police.

 

[MTLabrador]

I have no idea whether CWD actually exists or is merely exaggerated for political purposes. All I know is the strategic value exists and people I don't trust want me to believe in it. It seems I have run afoul of the thought police.

I killed a whitetail buck once with its tongue hanging out and spinning in circles. Absolutely skin and bones. I assure you CWD exists.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Yes, the 2A and hunting are certainly deeply intertwined. Probably as much as half of 2A supporters are hunters. If people lost interest in hunting it would be a huge victory for the gun control commies.

I believe there are far more gun owners than actual hunters in US. A quick fact check suggests about 35 million hunters and 75 million gun owners. And presumably 35 million are both.

 

[Hunting Wife]

It seems I have run afoul of the thought police.

Right on schedule. Post a bunch of far-fetched, nonsensical stuff, fail to provide any evidence, play the victim card when people call you on it.

It’s not our fault you can’t defend your opinion.

 

[Boondocks]

I believe there are far more gun owners than actual hunters in US. A quick fact check suggests about 35 million hunters and 75 million gun owners. And presumably 35 million are both.

That's what I said. About half.

 

[VikingsGuy]

That's what I said. About half.

But even if I stopped hunting I wouldn’t give up my guns - I use them for more than hunting. So no hunting doesn’t mean loss of half gun owner support.

 

[Sagebrush1]

Science is not a religion. It does not require faith and believers and should always be subject to verification...and not just by sources with agendas.
An example is global warming. Scientists have been telling us for many decades that glaciers are melting rapidly. I'm still waiting for sea level to increase and all those coastal towns going underwater.

Wow. There’s the brick wall everyone talks to

 

[Straight Arrow]

An example is global warming. Scientists have been telling us for many decades that glaciers are melting rapidly. I'm still waiting for sea level to increase and all those coastal towns going underwater.

Rhetoric which illustrates the basis of skepticism regarding evolution of scientific global dynamics. We are conditioned to be ego-centric and doubt what we cannot personally verify or what might occur during other than our own lifetime, while we are here on earth to experience it. It is fundamentally a lack of humility and acceptance of mortality as not even a kernel in the sands of eternity.

 

[brocksw]

Rhetoric which illustrates the basis of skepticism regarding evolution of scientific global dynamics. We are conditioned to be ego-centric and doubt what we cannot personally verify or what might occur during other than our own lifetime, while we are here on earth to experience it. It is fundamentally a lack of humility and acceptance of mortality as not even a kernel in the sands of eternity.

Too often I'm reminded of Carl Sagan's pale blue dot. Usually, in the face of willful ignorance, where rational and logical thinking seem only capable of conjuring a blank stare.

 

[Boondocks]

A pre-emptive ad hominem attack is when someone suggests that "Anyone who believes such and such is a so and so".

 

[brocksw]

A pre-emptive ad hominem attack is when someone suggests that "Anyone who believes such and such is a so and so".

That is not a pre-emptive hominem attack, by definition.

I just asked the questions, you "poisoned the well", all on your own.

An example:
"I hope I presented my argument clearly. Now, my opponent will attempt to refute my argument by his own fallacious, incoherent, illogical version of history."

 

[old270hunter]

I wonder if the reason some folks deny the problem with CWD is that they just have not seen it’s effects in an deer/elk with their own eyes. I had not seen any displaying symptoms the first 10 years or so since the original breakout in NE Colorado. I’ve now seen what I believe were CWD infected deer in 2 different mule deer, about a decade apart in NW Co. Both of these animals were skin and bones, while other deer had significant meat/fat on them. The one I saw this year I could literally count the ribs through the binoculars. Emaciated would be a good word. I‘d guess the animal was maybe 100 yds or less from me, and I could see issues with just my eyes. I pulled up the binos for a closer look and was pretty shocked. Ribs, hips, shoulder bones were really obvious. The area I saw the deer had tons of good feed, and other deer in the area appeared very healthy. This deer was not feeding, but was walking and standing around, with no clear plan or direction that I could see. I guess something else could have been wrong with it, but it did not appear injured or shot. That was kind of the same as the first one I saw 10 or so years ago. Now I have no clue if these animals had CWD or some other ailment. I do know they fit the description of animals with CWD based on what I’ve read and heard.

 

[brocksw]

I wonder if the reason some folks deny the problem with CWD is that they just have not seen it’s effects in an deer/elk with their own eyes.

I wouldn't work to hard wondering. One not need look far to quell that curiosity.

 

[Elktrack]

I wonder if the reason some folks deny the problem with CWD is that they just have not seen it’s effects in an deer/elk with their own eyes. I had not seen any displaying symptoms the first 10 years or so since the original breakout in NE Colorado. I’ve now seen what I believe were CWD infected deer in 2 different mule deer, about a decade apart in NW Co. Both of these animals were skin and bones, while other deer had significant meat/fat on them. The one I saw this year I could literally count the ribs through the binoculars. Emaciated would be a good word. I‘d guess the animal was maybe 100 yds or less from me, and I could see issues with just my eyes. I pulled up the binos for a closer look and was pretty shocked. Ribs, hips, shoulder bones were really obvious. The area I saw the deer had tons of good feed, and other deer in the area appeared very healthy. This deer was not feeding, but was walking and standing around, with no clear plan or direction that I could see. I guess something else could have been wrong with it, but it did not appear injured or shot. That was kind of the same as the first one I saw 10 or so years ago. Now I have no clue if these animals had CWD or some other ailment. I do know they fit the description of animals with CWD based on what I’ve read and heard.

That’s pretty interesting. Considering that CWD has been present in Colorado since the 60’s I would have assumed that seeing infected deer would be more common. I’ve never personally seen it. It’s new to Idaho and interestingly it didn’t make its way here by creeping across border from neighboring states but appeared well “inland” from the border.

I’m trying to learn more about it and have read the info at cwd-info.org, listened to podcasts, read articles and still feel like I don’t fully understand it.
I’ve got questions about it that I’d like answers to.

I in NO WAY think it’s a hoax.

I think part of the issue the hoaxers have is that some of the “data” can seem to contradict itself.
One example is I’ve read that the prions are viable (for lack of better term) for 4 yrs and also read that the prions remain viable forever. I realize that the data is fluid as we learn more.

Some aspects of CWD are really interesting like that it’s not just present in North America. Norway has it in wild reindeer population.
I recently listened to a podcast where a biologist was talking about CWD and he mentioned that they’re not sure if CWD has existed all along or if it’s a newer thing.

 

[Fremont15]

CWD certainly exists, but it doesn’t seem to be as fatal or have the doomsday effect that some game agencies want to convey.

 

[Elktrack]

CWD certainly exists, but it doesn’t seem to be as fatal or have the doomsday effect that some game agencies want to convey.

This brings up one of my questions about it.
As I understand it, CWD is 100% fatal and highly transmissible. Can be passed through feces, bodily fluids, coyote crap, even plants can uptake the prions and pass them along. This sounds very much like a doomsday scenario to me.
Yet, Colorado mule deer have had it since the 60’s and are still going strong. Or at least haven’t been wiped out by CWD in 50+ yrs. Is it in fact a devastating disease or simply something that is naturally occurring and ebbs and flows in natural cycles?

Do not lump me into the Hoax group. I’m asking a legit question in an effort to better understand.

 

[VikingsGuy]

This brings up one of my questions about it.
As I understand it, CWD is 100% fatal and highly transmissible. Can be passed through feces, bodily fluids, coyote crap, even plants can uptake the prions and pass them along. This sounds very much like a doomsday scenario to me.
Yet, Colorado mule deer have had it since the 60’s and are still going strong. Or at least haven’t been wiped out by CWD in 50+ yrs. Is it in fact a devastating disease or simply something that is naturally occurring and ebbs and flows in natural cycles?

Do not lump me into the Hoax group. I’m asking a legit question in an effort to better understand.

Not speaking to CDW in specific, but from a more general epidemiology standpoint, there is a difference between lethality and the portion of a population that would actually get the disease. A disease can be 100% lethal for those that become symptomatic, while still having portions of the population for whatever reason (genetic differences, stress status, etc) that either don't get it at all or have it at a subclinical level. So 100% lethal, but 50% of the herd survives, are not mutually exclusive concepts.

 

[Elktrack]

Not speaking to CDW in specific, but from a more general epidemiology standpoint, there is a difference between lethality and the portion of a population that would actually get the disease. A disease can be 100% lethal for those that become symptomatic, while still having portions of the population for whatever reason (genetic differences, stress status, etc) that either don't get it at all or have it at a subclinical level. So 100% lethal, but 50% of the herd survives, are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Copy that.
That’s how I understand most diseases to work but I was looking at CWD differently. Almost like an end all plague. So perhaps this is something that will self correct with time???
When I read about Norway killing entire herds of reindeer as a management tool it sounds pretty dire.
Thank you for the feedback

 

[Hunting Wife]

I’ve posted tons of links to research on the forum over the years on this subject that could get turned up with the search function, so I’m not going to dig it all up again. But yes, population declines in the 40-60% range have been observed in some herds with long-term infection. Mule deer, white-tails, and elk. So does it have the capacity to have population level effects? Yes.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Absolutely not.

Edit: sorry, that was jaded and pissy. I should elaborate. The typical pattern has been that states have been testing for decades with zero detections. Then, they suddenly detect a case. Then a couple more. Then over another decade or more we can watch the geographic spread and rising prevalence. That is not how it would play out, over and over again, if CWD had always been there. We have watched it climb up to 50% prevalence in some cases just in the time we have been observing and testing. With growth like that, there is zero chance it would have gone undetected for so long, and still has not been detected in so many places.

://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/ancient-history-of-lyme-disease-in-north-america-revealed-with-bacterial-genomes/

Lots of comparisons to be made between the explosion of CWD and Lymes Disease.