The Chainsaw Gang Looks Happy

[JoseCuervo]

From Sunday's Statesman....

How to Improve a Forest, Cut it down, and haul it into town.....

Some great quotes in support of sound scientific management of our forestes, by Western Govenors like Klumbthorne and Martz.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Approximately 90 million acres of our nation´s public forests are at risk of catastrophic wildfire, including more than 22 million roadless acres (8 million in Idaho alone).

Today, public support nationwide for thinning and managing our forests to reduce the threat of catastrophic wildfire is solid. The people do not support leaving our forests in their current unhealthy condition and want action to fix the problem.

And our position remains that a single roadless policy covering 60 million acres cannot be defended — not when the science regarding the need to manage our forests to reduce the impact of wildfire is clear.

the proposed rule changes allowing governors the opportunity to help determine how to best care for roadless acres in their own states is far better than if they had no such authority. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing like a sound reccommendation that the Govenor, the Political king in the state, should be the one to determine how to manage Federal Land....

 

[Michaelr]

sorry gunner, but once again, What about that article bothers you??
Where did you get "the chain saw gang"
I didn't read anything about logging in that article?

Am I missing something? Or are you just trolling for an argument?

 

[JoseCuervo]

If you read the three articles together, they are interesting in their contrasts.

This one is great, where the Bush administration wants to make rules to allow govenors the right to determine where roads in National Forests go. Am I missing something, but where on earth does the state get a right to tell the Forest Circus where to build roads?

And this one also gets a bit extreme, using the fear factor of 90 million acres ready to go up in a firey inferno, burning all of Idaho....

 

[Michaelr]

As dry as it is this year it is that scarry

I know here in my neck of the woods springs that have run for 100'sof years are going dry. creeks that are usually running over the banks are only a trickle
timber that is usually moist and green is as dry as the end of august.
I hope and prey that we slip through the summer without catastrophic fires.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hell, we are running Big Water over here. Go to
Teacup Diagram for Payette and Boise Drainages, with Streamflow data


We are sitting on full resivoirs and good looking rivers. The entire Salmon system is running above averages. The Brownlee is sitting at full pool.

We ran Hell's Canyon the week before last, and they were just spilling the extra water, with no cut backs on the dams at night. Made for a fast trip downstream.

 

[Muledeer4me]

["the Bush administration´s plan to build some flexibility into the rule by giving individual state governors some authority to manage roadless areas at their discretion is a step in the right direction and an idea worth trying.

We have long maintained that a blanket national roadless rule is bad policy. And no matter whether it includes governors´ exemptions or not, it is still bad policy because it set very constraining restrictions on 60 million acres — unique forests that acre-by-acre require very different management. These lands are also important to local people and communities. Setting in place a national policy like this one disrespects and disregards local information, knowledge, history and expertise. Make no mistake, the roadless policy was a last-minute political effort by the Clinton administration designed to meet political objectives, not forestry objectives."]
Im not a Kempthorne fan,but I do believe we should be able to have some flexabilty in managing whats in our state.


Just because we have good river flow's right now doesn't mean we aren't ripe for some big fire's,we still need to address the fuel build up from the year's of not letting it burn.
We had a wet spring ,so we now have more fuel to burn when it dry's out?
We still have areas that have alot of bug kill and thoses tree's are just waiting to burn.

 

[Nut]

The author of the article works for the timber industry associations. So it would be slanted to their views. Just mor spin from one side. Now to get the spin from the other side?

Yes I am cynical. I always get the extreme right or the extreme left and never the facts. Neither side ever gets it right.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nut,

That is why I posted 3 topics, on the same subject, that were all the response to the same action of the Bush Administration gutting the Roadless Rule.

It was kind of interesting to read the reactions of people, and their comments. And this was the only way I figured some of these people would read viewpoints other than their own.

These issues are controversial out here, and every group has an agenda. Some groups want to preserve and others want to destroy. It is the people "back east" who will eventually decide for us, as the political weight of the "back east" is greater.

Keep getting yourself educated, and keep making your mind up on your own values.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Elkgunner says:

"These issues are controversial out here, and every group has an agenda. Some groups want to preserve and others want to destroy."

You forget to mention that some would like to use wisely, and some would like jobs, and everyone consumes. The preservationist still use lumber and paper. They just prefer that the logging be done in Canada, not in their own backyard.

Paul

 

[Muledeer4me]

Paul,your post was right on the money.
("Some groups want to preserve and others want to destroy. It is the people "back east" who will eventually decide for us, as the political weight of the "back east" is greater.")
Talk about using the fear factor LOL.

Its that type of fear factor that some of us have been trying to put out.
All use does not fall under "to destroy" nor do we have to shut it all down to preserve and take care of what we have.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-25-2003 07:37: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>

 

[JoseCuervo]

MD,
I have to agree with you. As typical, Paul's post was about the "money"!!!

It is funny how people now want to "use wisely" as Paul extolled. That used to be known as "Logging" in the old days, but that started taking on such a negative conotation in the courts of public opinion, that we now have "wise use" being proposed. And to think the Old Guard is not able to change....

Is the Potlach mill up in Lewiston an example of "Wise Use" or is it an example of destroying the habitat on the Snake, and killing my opportunity to fish for Salmon and Steelhead? If you defend the Potlach Mill, you are an Anti-.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I do have a major question for you Gunner..
If we don't use some thing that we can produce ourselves, and eventually will go to waste, and this is some thing you yourself use volumes of this product. Then why not, is it just because of your perspective on not liking the look of harvesting techniques, those are changing, I see it in a lot of areas, is it because we shouldn't touch any thing in this country (natural resources) and use up every one else’s, is it just the fact that you don't like it that people should actually make a profit from these resources...
There is nothing wrong with the latter, this is how this country was founded, yes, some changes needed to be made on how they are extracted, but those (as time goes by) are being implemented better and better as each generation gets a little more education. But to totally cut this out of our economy and life style just because it is not popular by some, even though they themselves use the products and bi-products of the "EVIL INDUSTIES" is just hypocritical....

 

[Bullhound]

Elkgunner,

Please tell me exactly what the Potlatch mill in Lewiston is putting in the river. Please advise me as to what chemicals are entering the river and the amount. Could you give an estimate in "parts per million" with respect to samples pulled from the river.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Elkchsr,

If you question is should we be using our forests, and logging, and we might as well, as the wood will eventually go to waste, then my answer is, yes, we should log and cut trees if we can do it most economically.

I am not against logging, nor against timber mills, so hopefully that answers your question. Right now, it looks like the Canadians are able to produce lumber much cheaper than the Americans, so most of the Construction I have been involved in recently uses Canada forest products.

Now the administration of our National Forests and the Timber programs leaves a lot to be desired. And in this thread, I think the issue would be we don't need to build roads into roadless areas to cut the logs.

With respect to the Potlach Mill in Lewiston, they are situated on one of the few spots that affects EVERY Salmon and Steelhead in Idaho. They have an incredibly high burden to bear.

Generally speaking, most all of my posts in SI will get back to Salmon and Steelhead or Elk Hunting (with the occasional deer) as the reason I work with these organizations. If you want to build Mills on the Eastern side of the Divide, in Montana or Wyoming, that is fine with me, as they won't affect MY Salmon and Steelhead.

Bullhound,

Do you still need me to pull you the draft of the NOAA Fisheries draft Biological Opinion they issued in March, or can you find it yourself? I think Potlach was given copies of it in March, and as you are there in Lewiston, I am sure they are sharing it with the local citizens.

It is 199 pages of dry reading, but I can send you a copy if you need. Just give me a mailing address.

 

[Nut]

199 pages of reading? Is it on recycled paper?

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nut,

And I didn't even point out that it was issued by the Bush administration, so the "facts" might be a bit stretched, to serve a goal.

We know how they have been recently, playing a bit "loose" with the truth...

 

[BigHornyRam]

Elkgunner,

Do you have a problem with anyone else besides yourself and your lawyer buddies making a living? I'd give you at least a little respect if you would come out and say what you really think about logging, or any resource based industry for that matter. YOU DO NOT LIKE THEM. Now quit being a lying weasle like Ithaca and be man enough to admit it. You've been hanging out with your lying weasle lawyer friends to long. Next thing you know, you'll become a politician.

When's the last time you bought lumber. Not recently I'll wager. Prices are going up sharply because of low supply. A sheet of 7/16 OSB is pushing $12.00. This is what happens when you put most of the U. S. mills out of business and then rely on the Canadians to pick up the slack. Same is happening to our natural gas prices as well. Same with many other resource based goods. So if this is what you want for America, high energy costs, wood products, food, metals, ect... fine with me, just be man enough to say so. Just don't be upset when the majority of Americans dismiss your causes as those of an extremist.

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-26-2003 06:08: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>

 

[Lostagain]

gunner, you could move to AK or canada where the salmon and the steelhead still run. just an option for ya.

 

[Bullhound]

Elkgunner,

I would love a copy. I emailed you the address that I'd like it sent to. Thanks a bunch.

If you have the time, being as though you brought up the mill, I'd rather not wait for the report to get an idea of the content. So, if you could, give me some facts, not opinions, on exactly what the mill is putting in the river. A factual comparison of samples retrieved from above, just below, and well downstream would be good to see.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Paul,
I have no problem with others than myself making a living. In fact, I bust my butt every day, trying to create other high-paying jobs for people in Idaho and other places.

And thanks for giving me my opinion....on resource based industry. But that is actually your opinion of what you think my opinion is.

But, I will pass on you giving me my opinion, and instead, I will formulate my OWN opinions.

And, if you are going to call somebody names, you should at least learn how to spell. "weasle" is actually spelled weasel. Maybe you should wait until you finish the school year and have your Kindergarten graduation, where hopefully you will either learn not to call people names, or at least learn how to spell the names correctly....

Hey Lost,
Thanks for the suggestion about moving to Canada or Alaska, but the great thing about Salmon and Steelhead is that, if you manage your resources correctly, the FISH will come to YOU. It is awesome. I doubt they will ever make it to Montana, but we are again having Salmon seasons in Idaho, so hopefully you will be able to drive over HERE and catch one, and spend some of your $$$ in our economy. (The other problem with Alaska, is the Elk hunting sucks up there... and Canada, well, that places is almost like a Foreign Country...

)

Bullhound,
How come you are in such a hurry for a report that was issued in March???? And if you are in a hurry, why would you want me to summarize the data??? I might not be that bright, or even worse, I might have an agenda....

And instead of waiting for me to send it, you might also try some of the other ways of getting the information. Since you are in Lewiston, you could quickly get it from the Mill. Did you try that? Are they releasing copies locally? And you could use your FOI and get it from the NOAA. Or, you could check with the Environmental Organizations in Idaho, and get it from them, and hell, you could even offer them up the $30 memberships, as they seem to be the ones looking to improve water quality, which I assume you are concerned with. The one I suggest you join is Idaho Rivers United, as they are the leading group in this area, in my opinion. (Hint...hint... you might even find links to the NOAA report

).

And Bullhound, how did you read into my post that I was concerned with the Chemicals being dumped into the River by the Mill? You quickly jumped to the assumption that I was referring to Chemicals, and even quickly challenged me to provide "parts per million" data. You created something that I didn't ever say. And then you became defensive about the Chemicals, that I didn't bring up. Is there some reason you are so sensitive about the Chemicals????

Hmmm..... makes One wonder......

Cheers to all....